Hey guys, join Truth Be Told!!! See you there soon!😄😁😆😃😀
Lol, that's ok 😅😂 I could be wrong, but it's just my little hypothesis/opinion 🙃
I’m not sure I agree with that.🤔😅 The second on I agree.
Also, I think the mark of the beast will be something that is forced, in essence, since no one will be able to buy or sell without it, so it will make life basically impossible for those who don't get it, and they will also most likely be killed as well. But I don't think it will be forced in a way where someone could accidentally end up with the mark, since those who get it will make a conscience decision to do so, and likewise with those who refuse it.
Lol I'll try to explain my point a little better 😅 So before the rapture and tribulation occur, I believe there will still be judgements of God on the earth. At that time, the seal of God is placed on the saints, and they are shielded from those judgements. Finally, those saints with the seal are raptured, and now the believers in the tribulation will need to resist the mark of the beast in order to be saved by God.
I don’t think from reading the passages that the mark of the beast is something you could be forced to get. Persuaded or deceived perhaps, but not forced
Not saying this is gonna happen.😅
🤔, no exactly… so, your saying if believers a raptured during the tribulation, than these people will have the marks(and it will protect them from judgements before the rapture). But, if believers are raptured before the tribulation than they won’t be sealed and there choice to get the mark or not will determine wether there saints? I’m not really seeing how you’re getting this. Also, another interesting thing, also in the left behind series there’s a dilemma where a tribulation believer has the Mark of the beast. He (in some certain way) was forced to get it. What do you think about this?
Oh, just for clarification, I wasn't saying the seal of God would protect tribulation saints, but that it protects the saints that will be raptured, from the earlier judgements (Since Rev 7:3 indicates that). Also, about that same question of Will's, if those who are sealed by God are raptured before the tribulation, that may imply that the tribulation saints don't get that seal, but instead must resist taking the mark of the beast, which will in essence, mark them as saints, since they don't have the mark of the beast. Does that make any sense? 😅
I think your answers make sense. I’ll have to look at it again, I haven’t studied it a lot
I don’t think that Gods mark will protect the tribulation believers from the judgements. Also, to Wills question about those marked will Gods mark not getting the Mark of the Beast… These people are now Christians (if you believe what Roger and I mentioned), so they would resist the mark and wouldn’t get it. Since they would need it to do the common things of life and be seen in public they would suffer much persecution (if not death). Does this make sense? I didn’t word this very well.😅
Well, the mark of the beast is Satan's counterfeit of the seal of God, obviously. But, just another interesting thing I've noticed is that in Rev 9:4, they're told to only harm those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads, so that's like the separating factor. But once you get to like Rev 16:2, it refers to the separating factor as whether they have the mark of the beast or not. So it almost seems like those who have the seal of God are already taken from the earth, so it's now just a matter of who has the mark of the beast and who doesn't. 🤔 Idk whether there will be a seal of God on saints that end up in the tribulation, but it almost seems like (and again, I'm not completely sure) that the seal of God, earlier in Revelation, marks those who will be raptured 🤷♂️ And that it also protects them from the earlier judgements, like the trumpets.
I don’t know much about it, but I do know that in the left behind series this is the mark is a mark given by the Lord to tribulation believers. However, I don’t know how correct this is biblically. Roger might be able to give a better answer.
Question for whoever sees this: what is the mark of the Lamb? And is it true that those with the mark of the Lamb won’t get the mark of the beast? (looking at Revelation 7:3, 9:4, 13:16-17, 14:1, 14:9-11, 16:2, 19:20, 20:4, and 22:4)
Alright,👍🏼 there are lots of theories.😁
Oh ok. 😅 I definitely believe that America is Babylon, for so many reasons. If you look at the description of Babylon in the Bible, there's no other country today that fits that like the US does. Also, I still do tend to think that Obama is the antichrist, although I'm not dogmatic on that, and I could be wrong 🙃
I haven’t done much study, but I don’t think so.😅 If you still believe Obama is the antichrist than do you think that? I don’t have much of a stance on those things cuz I’m not expecting to be there.😁
Btw, do you believe that America is modern day Babylon?
Yup 😆 Gotta be ready for the Lord's return, but also ready to hang in there for the long haul if we're here for longer than expected 😅😂
Yeah, things are bad, things are happening in the Middle East (with the countries it talks about in the Bible). However, you never know.😉😆
Yup, I agree 👍🙃 Well, given the present condition of the world and just kinda projecting into the future the steep downward decline that it's on, I can't really see things continuing on for a very long time before the great tribulation begins 🤔 Wbu?
Interesting. Makes sense. Looked at the passages you mentioned but can’t say anything against what you said that I can see so far.😁 I agree, we can’t necessarily know everything for sure, but God will show what he intends us to know. We shat see.🙃 Another question,(that is unknowable as well😆) how soon do you think the tribulation is and why.(if you have a strong answer)
So in other words, I believe that we who are raptured will not still be around when the final wrath of God comes upon the earth, bc we know that "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess 5:9). So that's just what I've seen from the Word, and again, I still don't know everything about the end times. But what are your thoughts on all that? (Sorry it was so long 😅😂)
So now, if we go and look at Rev 11, where the seventh trumpet is sounded, you'll notice something interesting if you look closely at vs 17: "saying: 'We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One WHO IS AND WHO WAS, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.'" Notice how it says "who is and who was". That is the FIRST TIME in Revelation where they do not also include the phrase "and who is to come", which implies that at this point, Jesus has come! Now, you of course have to remember that the events in Revelation are not all in sequential order. However, I do believe that the seventh trumpet happens before the bowls of God's wrath come, in Rev 16 (see Rev 16:5, where again it only says "who are and who were").
Essentially, I tend to believe that the time of the rapture is around the seventh trumpet in Revelation, and here's why: 1) Compare Rev 10:7 with 1 Cor 15:51-52. First, Revelation says: "But in the days when the SEVENTH ANGEL is about to sound his TRUMPET, the MYSTERY of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” Then, look at 1 Cor, speaking of the rapture: "Listen, I tell you a MYSTERY: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." Notice the correlations there: mystery of God at the seventh/last trumpet?
So, I'll just preface it to say that I'm not too dogmatic when it comes to eschatological subjects, since no one person has everything figured out. But here's just something I've noticed in reading the Bible that seems to draw a pattern.
I avoided thinking about pink elephants until now... because I just read it now haha.
Never mind, I defeated my own point already 🤣
Did you think about pink elephants?
DON’T THINK ABOUT PINK ELEPHANTS!!!
Ok we can stop the discussion, thank you for your input!
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The term "begotten" indicates that there is a beginning but we know that there is not one who was created after God or the Father, so the term cannot mean another person but a role or when He came as a man. If we look at the 2 perspectives can we see the difference we get in our view of love? If it's One God who comes down to earth Himself to die for us, vs. one person sending another person to die for us.
Luke 1:31-35 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." I think the term Son of God is indicating that Jesus is not just a man but God in a human body, not conceived by man but by a miracle from God.
Understanding that, what I'm referring to is that we should read for ourselves otherwise we may be mislead if we just take what we hear as truth. While maybe this isn't a salvation issue/topic, it affects how we understand the Bible. If you read it like that then Son of God sounds like someone different from God. I don't think He is showing three.
I have to discontinue the discussion. May Jesus bless you
Why do you think God keeps showing showing three?
it seems like a plain reading too me
yes, Son of of God sounds like a different person. they have that a lot in the ot, “Joshua son of Nun” for example
I don’t understand why you used 2 Corinthians 13:5 since it is talking about making sure you are saved, but I do agree with you that we should not simply justify out beliefs. They need to line up with scripture first and foremost.
When you read the term "Son of God" is this referring to a different person to you? (Son referring to Jesus and God referring to the Father.)
I think it's similar to what you're saying with John 12:28-30, it was for people to know that Jesus was the Messiah.
I think the reason for this happening is recorded in John 1:32-34. "And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." So it looks to me like the purpose of this was for John to know who the Messiah was.
Yes I only use KJV, I'm not 100% against using other versions but there are some spots where words are changed in other versions that make a big difference. I also try to use Strong's concordance to get better ideas of what some words mean if I don't understand.
Why else did it happen? Trying to think biblically, I thought of this: John 12:28-30 (KJV) 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard [it], said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
2 Cor. 13:5 tells us to "examine yourselves, whether we be in the faith; prove your own selves." I think it's important to look at what we believe to see if it's correct and not to just justify our own beliefs, so that when we find things we have understood incorrectly, we can have a better understanding. After all, we are not God and don't know everything there is to know, yet we don't know one specific thing that we are wrong about, otherwise we wouldn't think it that way.
I agree, I don't see anything in the text to suggest that God is trying to communicate that He is everywhere at once but only 3. But the principle of God being omnipresent can help us understand Him more. I understand what you are saying but realize that you are saying if from the bias of God being 3 separate persons. If we take an outside view for a minute, and understand that God (whoever He is) has all power and can do anything, what is He trying to convey by this happening? Understanding from a trinity perspective one might say He is trying to convey 3 persons, but from an outside perspective, what else do we know about why this happened?
That’s an interesting question. This is where the believe like a child would come into play, i think. To say it simply: that is what those verses show. God is showing three. Why? If you didn’t have the bias you have, you would think three. If you didn’t know about God’s omnipresence, you would think three. i don’t see anything in the text to suggest that God is trying to communicate He is everywhere at once but only three. Do you?
If I am coming across as prideful then then "killing the discussion" is a good thing, so I'm sorry if that's how I was coming across. I agree that we don't understand everything, but my question is, why is the trinity something we are supposed to accept as a true base to build off of? I do not see anywhere in the Bible where God is three persons. If I take one of the examples you used (Matt. 3:16-17), to say that because Jesus is in the water while the Spirit is in the sky, and a voice came from heaven means there must be 3 different people would make perfect sense IF God isn't omnipresent. But if He is omnipresent then He isn't bound by our laws of nature, and why then would a voice from heaven as the spirit comes from heaven, mean that there must be 3 separate people?
We know that Jesus is the messiah because He fulfilled all the many prophesies, about the messiah, as you said. Idk how many there are, but there are a lot!—Something like a hundred or so. I heard this example once of the mathematical possibility for Jesus to have fulfilled something like eight of them: if we filled the state of Texas two feet deep with silver dollar coins and then marked one of them, mixed the coins all together thoroughly, then blindfolded someone and sent them to go anywhere in the state and choose the marked coin on the first try, that’s the same possibility of Jesus fulfilling just those few. (Basically zero). So if He fulfilled a hundred prophesies, but only ninety-nine are understandable to you but one doesn’t make sense to you, just set the one aside for now. Don’t make up stuff to make it fit better into your understanding. God says plenty we don’t understand. There are plenty of scriptures to show that there are more than one person of God, (and plenty to show there is only one God.)
I’m sorry, I did not mean to kill the discussion! I just wanted to remind us to take things in a sober-minded and reverent way, remembering who we’re talking about.
Thanks LacyGene. We don't have to keep discussing it, I just want to point out that the reason it matters to me personally is because Jesus is my God because I believe that Jesus is the Messiah. And whoever the Messiah was going to be, that one had to fulfill all the prophecies of the Messiah (for example must be the seed of David), and if all the prophecies of the Messiah were not fulfilled by Jesus then He was an impostor and not the Messiah. But I believe He was the Messiah, and one of the prophecies was that He would be called the Everlasting Father.
Yeah, definitely don’t take the “read it like a child idea” too far for sure!
Thanks! I ran across this verse and thought you guys would appreciate it: Hosea 6:6 (CSB) For I desire faithful love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
The reason I think Dec. 25 is incorporating Roman religion is because of a lot of the similarities in the way it's celebrated and how pegan religions celebrated. But I'll leave that up to you if you want to hear my reasons for thinking that some time.
LacyGene, Yes I understand that, but one of the things to consider is that if the writers didn't believe that God was three persons then that's not what would have thought by the way it's written. A child reading Isaiah 9:6 is also going to think that the Son is going to be called the Father is that Jesus was the same one as the Father. I think it's more trying to understand what they were talking about when they were writing what they wrote because as you said, the Bible must all match.
Will, I'm not 100% familiar with the creeds either, and I'm not saying they must be wrong. All I'm saying is that I don't view them as determining and think that it's possible that they are wrong if it's not what the Bible is saying (which in this case it looks like to me.) With the Bible not saying that God is 3 separate persons it looks to me like the trinity is a theory about who the Jehovah God is based on what people find in the Bible, and same with the oneness theory. A theory can be true or not true, and I'm just saying that I disagree with that theory of who God is or how He worked/works.
Thanks Roger, we don't have to agree or think the same things but it gives us more to think about and consider when we read the Bible. It's not us that can open each other's eyes but only God can help us see more clearly one way or the other.
The reason I place emphasis on the historical acceptance of doctrine is because of verses like Hebrews 13:9a, “Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.” If a doctrine is Biblical, I’ll accept it. But say two contrary doctrines are biblical with one having been historically accepted and the other being “strange.” I’ll go with the historically accepted doctrine.
@Stephen, thanks for reading the articles. About the creeds: I’m not familiar with the Constantinople creed, but I do accept the Nicene creed. I know it’s not the Bible, I just don’t see anything in it that contradicts scripture. I also would be careful about discrediting the Nicene Council. While they didn’t do everything right, they did clarify that Jesus was God and unified the church on that principle. They also are the reason we have the biblical cannon that we have, and they separated the cannon from the apocrypha (not separated enough, but they did separate them). Basically, my point is that if you discount the Council of Nicea too much, you might have a hard time accepting our current biblical canon. As far as December 25, I can never understand why people think it’s incorporating Roman paganism because the intended and actual effect was the total eradication of Roman paganism. We can discuss it later if you want.
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: But fools despise wisdom and instruction.” Proverbs 1:7. So out of a fear of the Lord, we carefully examine scripture to make sure we say what is true about Him
“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” Isaiah 1:18. “Get wisdom, get understanding: Forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: Love her, and she shall keep thee. Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: And with all thy getting get understanding.” Proverbs 4:5-7
@LacyGene, thank you for your warning. I agree that we are called to have faith like a child. I would add that we are to be careful with the doctrine we choose to accept; that’s why we are examining scripture closely. “Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11. “So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him.” Acts 17:17-18a
Jesus in the water. Spirit in the sky. Father in heaven.
Matthew 3:16-17 (KJV) 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father
John 15:26 (KJV) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
…GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me…
Isaiah 48:16-17 (KJV) 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way [that] thou shouldest go.
I just happened to decide to listen to Hebrews 1 and even tho it wasn’t what I was thinking of posting, it fits with reading it like a child. If you read it like a child, what is the child going to think? One person speaking to and of himself, or one speaking to and of another person?
As I was praying about responding to this thread, it seemed like it would be good to give a warning. The conversation here seems like it has become a fleshly exercise rather than an honest seeking to know The God of all the earth. Don’t be prideful in your “knowledge”. I do believe this is an important issue because if you don’t have the true God, you can’t have salvation. However, examine your heart carefully with the fear of God before you that you are not just trying to reinforce your view rather than looking at scripture plainly for what it says. Believe like a child. It doesn’t have to make sense to you to be the truth.
So, I think at this point, I'm just going to share a couple more excellent articles for you to check out, and then close out my part in the debate 😉 https://tinyurl.com/2d9ve8sr This first one explains the biblical nature of the Trinity very thoroughly, and has the answers to some of your questions (including about Isaiah 9:6). I think it will help you understand our viewpoint even better 😁 https://tinyurl.com/3emvxd5d Also, this second one contrasts the doctrine of the Trinity with polytheism, as you were asking what's the difference. But it was good discussing this with you Stephen, and I pray that God will reveal the truth to you about it 😄👍
*no one’s arguing for three God’s
Yes, basically if the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate persons or the same. Either way agreeing that He/they are all God.
Sorry I didn't get to everything in order. Going back to what you said Roger about what Jesus said when He was dying on the cross. I think Jesus was saying that out of fleshly nature (same as when He cried out that He felt forsaken). So His subjectivity to the fleshly nature was over as He was fulfilling being the ultimate sacrificial lamb.
@LacyGene - no one is arguing for the Gods. We’re discussing whether to believe the Trinity or not
Roger: In verse 16 & 18 Jesus says the Father sent Him, and that's why they ask Him where His Father is. By their question it leads me to think that they knew He was telling them that His father sent Him. This is why it looks to me like John is not just referring to verse 26 but to the whole conversation that Jesus had with them, especially verse 25. If He was claiming to be the Father then we'd expect them to try to stone Him for it, but John specifies that they didn't know that's what He was talking about.
Reminder: All scripture is true. When it doesn’t seem to go together, it still has to. We may not understand, but God knows who He Himself is.
when was the last time you read thru the entire Bible?
I I have not been reading everything, but is the question whether there are three but one God?
Thank you Will, I read the articles and think I have a bit better understanding of your belief of the trinity. I'm not sure what you think/believe about the early ecumenical creeds mentioned in the second article, as obviously if one believes that everything at the council of nicaea has to be correct then they must believe the trinity as that's where it was decided on. From what I've found, Pope Julius I (337ad - 352ad) declared December 25 as the birthdate of Jesus. Knowing that the Roman gods had their birthdays around the winter solstice and that Jesus was declared to be born then, (I'm assuming you don't think that's when He was born? That would be a whole other study) leads me to believe that Roman peganism had already been trying to incorporate Christianity into it. So for me, I don't look at them as fact or must be truths.
I agree with you that there is a difference or distinction between flesh and spirit. But Jesus Himself said that the Father was inside Him, and God is a spirit. I agree that the flesh aspect of Him is different than the spiritual. But the one living inside that body was the Jehovah God of the old testament. Similar to how we are more than just flesh but have a spiritual man on the inside but are yet only one person.
I think He was meaning the same one because of the response from the Jews. Jesus calling Himself and His Father one caused them to pick up stones to stone Him because they said that made Him God. I think that if it wasn't saying He was the same that they would have no reason to stone Him because He could be talking about His earthly Father.
It's also the same word used to say there is one God in James 2:19, yet we don't say that it's a different one.
I understand how one would naturally think that because when I hear that there are 3 separate persons with extra human powers that all exist, I naturally think that each one fits the definition of a God, but obviously you aren't saying that they are 3 Gods. But what if the word "and" isn't meaning an additional separate person? Why can't it be giving/saying that Jesus/God has the attributes of a Father? 2 Corinthians 6:16-18 says, "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
It looks to me like He is both dwelling in us and being a Father to us.
Secondly, when it says "one", it doesn't mean "the same". In that context, according to Mounce Interlinear, the Greek word for "one" means "one virtually by union"; so essentially, "united". And there are several examples of more than one individual being called "one". For example, it says a man will become ONE with his wife. That doesn't mean that now they are the same person, does it? In 1 Cor 6:17, it says "But the one who joins himself to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT with Him." Does that now mean that we ourselves ARE the Lord? No... And that uses the same Greek word for "one" as in John 10:30. Third example is from John 17:22: "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be ONE AS WE ARE ONE:" Again, same Greek word. And here's a quote from an article that's very well said: "The oneness of believers in this text is oneness involving distinct persons. Christ uses this same concept of oneness dealing with individual believers when He speaks of Himself and His Father ("as You Father, are in Me, and I in You"). The only way Christ's statement makes any sense at all is if He and His Father are truly two distinct persons, who are yet one nonetheless as well. How else could believers be one as Christ and the Father are one? Might they mesh into a blob of humanity that become one person and are no longer distinct persons? Of course not! Scripture teaches no such thing. Believers are one indeed in the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3-6; 1 John 4:6), and are one body (Ephesians 4:4), but they are nonetheless, at the same time, distinct persons in the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:11-12)."
Verse 27 doesn't say that Jesus was claiming to be the Father. You have to look at the context in v 26, which clearly says: "But HE WHO SENT ME is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.' They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father." So he was talking about his Father when he spoke of Him who sent him, not when he was speaking of who he claimed to be.
Roger, the reason I think He was talking about the Father is because John specifically says in verse 27 "They understood not that he spake to them of the Father." If John 10:30 doesn't mean they are the same then what does it mean?
I interpret Jesus saying that only the Father knows is referring to God's Spirit and that there is no way humanity (including the humanity He took on) is going to find the day of His return (such as people claiming Jesus is coming back a certain day). How is it possible that the Son doesn't know if He is omniscient? I don't see how both of these can be true unless He is referring to the flesh of Him. Is there another explanation for how these could both be true?
One other question on your 4th point, if the Father is the head of the trinity then do you believe they are all equal or do you believe different on that?
I'm a little confused on your 4th point. When you say Isaiah 9:6 is referring to God who is our father, are you saying that it's not referring specifically to the son? Because if Jesus and the Father are 2 separate persons and they are each our Father, wouldn't that mean we have 2 Fathers? Or are you saying that Jesus is our Father and the Father is Jesus' Father but not our Father? or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
I will read articles you sent and reply to your 3rd point when I get a chance.
Ok but just because it's been believed for a long time or by lots of people, it doesn't make it right. The trinity idea survived the reformation but so did other things because we still have the Catholic religion today. But even during the reformation there were people who disagreed with the trinity and were burned for heresy. But our trust should be in God and the Bible over what man says. Shouldn't we continue to learn and not just follow what a religion or denomination says about everything because we agree with some points it makes.
So it seems you're saying that Jesus' flesh (the human part of him) prayed to his own spirit, the divine part of him? That doesn't make much sense, because Jesus' spirit was on earth, too. When Jesus died, he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit". If the Father WAS his spirit, why would he be committing it to the Father?
Naturally, if you see the word "and", it indicates more than one thing or person. So, just as an example, Roger is my middle name and Christopher is my first name. If you got a letter that said "Greetings from Christopher and Roger", you would obviously assume that it's from two different ppl. That's just the same as it is all throughout the New Testament. For example: “To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father AND Christ Jesus our Lord.” (1Ti 1:2; cf., 2 Tim 1:2) "Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father AND from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love." (2 John 1:3) Why would it keep on saying God the Father AND Jesus Christ if they are the same?
To answer some of your questions and comments, Stephen: I use the NIV1984. Regardless of whether he said "I am the one I claim to be" or "I am he", Jesus clearly was referring to who he had always claimed to be, which was the Messiah, the Son of God. Bc right after they asked him, "Who are you?" and he said "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning." And if you look thru the gospels, Jesus never said he was the Father. Yes, he said that he and the Father are one, but that doesn't mean they are the same Person.
5th, how do you explain this verse: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Matthew 24:36. How can the Father know something the Son does not unless they are different persons? I interpret it that while the Son and the Father are wholly God, something about their separation as persons makes one able to know something the other doesn’t. What distinction do you make between them to make this possible?
4th - Deut 6:4 - it does mean one in number because the Trinity is one in number (1x1x1=1). Isaiah 9:6 - the verse refers to God who is our father, and Jesus is wholly God just as the Father is wholly God despite neither being each other. Matthew 23:9 - God is our Father. The Father is the father of Jesus in the sense that He is the head of the Trinity. But the answer to this verse is that God is our Father.
3rd, to clarify, I think your understanding of the is the opposite of how I understand it. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God only unified in purpose, instead, they are each the whole of God unified in being but separate in person and purpose. So, to speak of Jesus is to speak of the whole of God, while simultaneously not speaking about and Father or Holy Spirit. The same is true of speaking about the Father and Holy Spirit. In other words, to speak of one is to speak of the whole of God and not speak of other persons. To speak of God is to speak of each of the three member, though sometimes God the Father is implied by context. Each member of the Trinity has unique purpose or person that is destinct from the other persons, but each member makes up the entirety of the whole that is God. Here is are two articles that have verse references: https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html - https://www.gotquestions.org/Tritheism-Trinity.html
2nd, God definitely does hide himself at times, choosing not to reveal everything about himself. Isaiah 45:15, “Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the Savior.” John 1:18a, “No man hath seen God at any time;” Matthew 13:10-11, “The disciples came to him and asked, ‘Why do you speak to the people in parables?’ He replied, ‘Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but NOT to them.’ Also, “At that time Jesus said, ‘I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have HIDDEN these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. ‘All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.’” Matthew 11:25-27. That’s why I believe it’s reasonable to believe God emphasized His oneness to Israel to show Israel as different from the surrounding nations, but when God decided to include the gentiles, He revealed that he was 3 in 1. In other words, He chose to reveal what would accomplish His purpose.
1st, unlike indulgences, the doctrine of the Trinity survived the reformation, and has not only survived more than 500 years of sola scriptura, but also every major Protestant biblical scholar and every major Protestant denomination supports the Trinity. And I don’t think all those scholars decided to believe the Trinity without examining scripture.
Matt. 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
If we have only one Father then who is it? God the Father, or Jesus?
According to Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is going to be called the everlasting Father; if it wasn't Jesus they were writing about when the apostles wrote about the Father, then when is Jesus called the Father?
I'm not saying that the trinity is contradictory to itself, but I don't think that's who God is because I don't think that's what the Bible is saying. If for example, Deut. 6:4 is not talking about 1 in number but 1 in purpose, then what do we have to say that there is only 1 God and not 3 Gods with 1 purpose?
Understanding the triads of Egypt, this is what Israel was brought out of and God was showing them who He was (provider, protector, etc.) This is part of why I think Deut. 6:4 is saying just one person or spirit rather than one triad or trinity.
I agree that we can't exhaust learning about God, but I don't think He hid who He was. I don't think they crucified Jesus because they thought He was saying He was a second person and they only believed in one, but because they thought He was saying that He was the one and they didn't think He was because they were carnally minded and looking for deliverance from Rome and not from sin. I think John 10:30 shows that they thought He was claiming to be the one person of God, because when He said, "I and my father are one" they were going to stone Him because saying this meant He was claiming to be God. (I don't see how saying that would be claiming to be God if there are 3 persons to God and He was just meaning one in purpose because He could also be one in purpose with an earthly father.)
From my understanding, in 325ad at the counsel of Nicaea is where it was formalized and officially decided on in 381 or something like that. Penance was also around in 250ad, but that doesn't mean that it was correct. Yes, there were different sects of Jews, we can even see this with the Pharisees and Sadducees. I'm not saying that because many believed in one person and one being that that's what makes it true, but the more we understand about them, the better we can understand the context.
I looked it up in a book
called
The
Forgotten Trinity
by James White, and it all made
more sense after I realized a triune entity was possible.
The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that God is three
persons in one being. “
Being
” and “
person
” are not the same
thing, which means the Trinity is not a contradiction. To
illustrate, consider this: I am one being, a human being. I am
also one person, Nabeel Qureshi. So I am one being with one
person, a human being who is Nabeel Qureshi. The doctrine of
the Trinity teaches that God is one being with three persons:
Father, Son, and Spirit.
Doctrine of the Trinity
: The
belief that God is one in being
and three in person
Being
: The quality or essence
that makes something what it
is
Person
: The quality or essence
that makes someone who he
is
In the fullness of time, and without any productive
discussion with David, I understood the Trinity on my own
terms and realized it was a possible model of God’s nature. I
was not convinced it was the true model, since it contravened
Tauheed, but I had to concede it was viable. And when that
happened, my thoughts about God became richer
I looked around
the room, agape at their blind acceptance.
But was it really blind? The professor was teaching rarefied
science, describing the subatomic world. At that level, things
happen that make no sense to those of us who conceptualize
the world at only a human level. Even the apparently simple
idea of atoms is baffling when we think about it. It means that
the chair I am sitting on is not actually a solid object,
innocently supporting my weight. It is almost entirely empty
space, occupied only in small part by particles moving at
incomprehensible speeds. When we think about it, it seems
wrong, but it’s just the way things are in our universe. There’s
no use arguing about it.
I turned my glance away from the other students,
concluding they had not blindly accepted a nonsensical
concept. They had just realized before I did that there are
truths about our universe that do not fit easily into our minds.
My eyes rested on the three separate structures of nitrate
on the wall, my mind assembling the pieces. One molecule of
nitrate is all three resonance structures all the time and never
just one of them. The three are separate but all the same, and
they are one. They are three in one.
That’s when it clicked: if there are things in this world that
can be three in one, even incomprehensibly so, then why
cannot God?
And just like that, the Trinity became potentially true in my
mind. I looked over at David and decided to say nothing.
Later, I revisited the
doctrine of the Trinity
with a fresh
perspective. What do Christians mean when they say God is
three in one? Three what in one what?
Although the concept was easy enough to grasp, the
reality proved to be baffling. Mrs. Adamski concluded her
lesson by commenting, “These drawings are just the best way
to represent resonance structures on paper, but it’s actually
much more complicated. Technically, a molecule with
resonance is every one of its structures at every point in time,
yet no single one of its structures at any point in time.”
The rest of the class must have had the same expressions
on their faces that I did because Mrs. Adamski repeated
herself. “It’s all the structures all the time, never just one of
them.” After another brief
pause, she afforded us some
reassurance. “But don’t worry about that. You’re only going to
be tested on the structures we can draw,” to which the class
gave a collective sigh of relief.
But not me. I turned to David, unable to get past what Mrs.
Adamski had just said. David subtly shrugged and returned his
attention to the professor as she moved to the next topic. It
appeared I was the only one still thinking about the bomb she
had just dropped.
How could something be many things at once? Many
different things? We were not talking about the attributes of
something like a steak, which can be hot, juicy, thick, and
tender all at once. We were talking about separate spatial and
electrical arrangements. What the professor said would be akin
to saying that Nabeel is eating said steak in Texas while
simultaneously napping in a hammock in the Caribbean. As
wonderful as each would be individually, it made no sense to
say I might be doing both at once.
I was perplexed, and what made it even worse was that no
one around me seemed bothered in the least.
Projected in the front of the room were three large
depictions of nitrate in bold black and white. We were studying
resonance, the configuration of electrons in certain molecules.
The basic concept of resonance is easy enough to understand,
even without a background in chemistry. Essentially, the
building block of every physical object is an atom, a positively
charged nucleus orbited by tiny, negatively charged electrons.
Atoms bond to one another by sharing their electrons, forming
a molecule. Different arrangements of the electrons in certain
molecules are called “resonance structures.” Some molecules,
like water, have no resonance while others have three
resonance structures or more, like the nitrate on the board.
The reason 3 is associated with divinity so much is because of its prominence in creation. Here is a list of a few. Life: birth, life, death. Three elements: earth, water, fire. Three domains: earth, sky, sea. Time: past, present, future. Humans: soul, body, mind. Stories/music: beginning, middle, end. Family: father, mother, offspring. In modern science, their are even more groups of 3. For instance, we can only perceive 3 dimensions. Most notable is the literal fabric of the universe which is space, time, and matter. Each is a distinct thing, but neither exists without the other. Also, here is an excerpt from Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus by Nabeel Qureshi:
Also, it seems incorrect to use Romans 1:19-20 to say that Jews would have all believed the trinity if it were true because if everything about God’s nature was so obvious, then they would have accepted Jesus as the Son of God. But most Jews did not and still do not accept Jesus as God, so clearly not everything about God was clear to the Jews. The verses are also supposed to be referring to the Godhead being clearly seen by gentiles and Jews so that all are without excuse. So, it’s worthwhile to explore gentile thought as imperfect interpretations of the revelation of creation. Interestingly enough, most gentiles believe in polytheism with the most powerful Gods usually being a trio. In fact, deities are in triads basically all over the world, and the number three also has near universal association with divinity. This is similar to how nearly every cultural tradition has a narrative about a world wide flood, suggesting that the event really occurred.
So, I found a bit about early Jewish thought. It seems like we can’t actually know what the ancient Jews thought about the idea of trinity. This is because after Christians formalized the doctrine of the trinity in the 3rd century AD, Jews heavily censored Jewish documents that suggested the idea that God may have more than one person. However, some uncensored documents show that there were Jews who believed ideas that are closely related to the idea of the trinity. The most radical view suggested is that there are two God’s, God the father and God the Son (the doctrine of the trinity of course rejects the idea of polytheism). Some also argue that it wasn’t actually two God’s, but that there is or will be a near divine from the Davidic line being called the Son with God being the Father. So, it seems there was some differences of opinion in Jewish thought, the prevailing one admittedly being that God is one in being and person.
Absolutely, the point of discussion is to learn more, and at the very least to understand other's point of view and where they get it from. So I'm always open to hearing from anyone. If I'm understanding something wrong I want to know because it's not about justifying ourselves but about getting to know and understand God more.
Hi, I’ve been reading this conversation for a while. Would it be ok if I answered your point about Romans 1:19-20. I’ve done some research on early Jewish thought as well as God as revealed through what has been made
I'm trying to figure out where the difference is starting from, I think it might be what we are using for definitions of "person" "being" and "God". I'm looking at person and being as the same definition. I understand that you are saying 3 persons but 1 being. I just don't know how you are differentiating a person from a being. Would you be able to explain the difference in definition that you are using for person and being?
4. I think there is a difference between the flesh part and God part of Jesus (fully man and fully God). And the flesh part of Him was still subject to humanity. Psalms 65:2 "O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come." Jesus was also flesh so He must pray. I think 1Cor. 15:24 is talking about the role of sonship. In heaven there will be no sin so the blood of Jesus is no longer applied as there is no more sin to cover.
3. To clarify, I don't believe angels created, and I'm not sure if that's what is means. But that it is God alone that created as we see from verse 27.
sorry that last one should have been part of #1 not 3
3. Just to get clarification, do you believe that when it says "and" that the only thing it can be talking about is a separate thing or person? For example "what is his name, and what is his son's name?" in proverbs 30:4.
2. Can I ask what version you are using? I've looked in a few different versions and they say "I am he" rather than "I am the one I claim to be." Understanding that the "he" is italicized which means it was added to make the sentence make more sense in English, so the actual words would be just "...if you believe not that I am." This is in response to their question asking who His father is.
1. Romans 1:19-20 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." It looks to me like Paul says that from the foundation of the world the Godhead can be clearly seen.
4. What leads me to believe that Jesus cannot be the exact same Person as Father is the fact that they are shown interacting with each other all over the place, not just when Jesus was on earth, but even now that he is in heaven. Jesus is shown praying to the Father all throughout his time on earth (especially John 17), and even now that he is in heaven, he still prays to the Father. Romans 8:34 says that Jesus “is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” In 1 John 2:1 we read that Jesus is our “advocate with the Father,” and from Hebrews 7:25 we learn that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for us. Why would one person talk, pray, and intercede to himself? Also look at 1 Cor 15:24: "Then the end will come, when he (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." How could God "hand over the kingdom" to himself?
3. In Genesis 1:26, God could not have been talking to angels, because angels are not creators. And He wouldn't be talking to Himself in the third person plural. So, like I said, I believe this verse clearly shows the members of the Trinity conversing with each other. All three of them have existed eternally, and they are able to interact with each other, something that wouldn't be possible if they were all exactly the same Person. Now, as you pointed out, while verse 26 uses the pronouns “Us” and “Our,” verse 27 uses the singular pronouns “His” and “He” to refer to the same God. As in Genesis 1:1 the word “God” in Genesis 1:26 is a plural noun, and the verb “said” is a third person singular verb. The God of the Bible reveals Himself as plural in Persons but single in Being.
2. In John 8, Jesus never said that he was the Father, and Jesus never claimed to be the Father. Jesus said: "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.” The one he claimed to be all along was the Son of God. (see Luke 22:70)
1. In the Old Testament times, the Son and Holy Spirit had not yet been fully revealed, as they later were in the New Testament. However, they still were definitely mentioned throughout the Old Testament (including all the prophecies about Jesus.) One verse to look at is Proverbs 30:4: "Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name OF HIS SON? Tell me if you know!" So we see that even in Proverbs, it gives mention of God the Father AND his Son (Jesus).
What is it that leads you to believe that Jesus can't be the Father?
How do you interpret Gen. 1:26-27?
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." verse 27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Whoever God is talking to (maybe angels?), it looks like God is still the only one who did the creating because in verse 27 when it says that God created man it goes back to singular rather than saying in "their" image or that "they" created man.
2 Corinthians 13:1 says "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." It looks to me like Paul is saying that he witnessed 3 times but doesn't have to be 3 different people.
If we keep reading from John 8:19-27, we see that the pharisees asked Jesus "where is thy Father?" His reply to them was "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." He then says in verse 24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." The Pharisees asked Him who He was again right after this and He replies in verse 25 "even the same that I said unto you from the beginning." In verse 27 John specifies that the Pharisees didn't understand that Jesus was speaking about the Father. It looks to me like Jesus said that He is the Father in these verses.
So from my understanding, the reason that 3 is believed rather than more is because only 3 are ever mentioned in the Bible? If this is the case, then before Jesus came to earth, how did the Israelites (or anyone) know that there were specifically 3 persons in the Godhead?
Also, I'm very curious to know how you interpret Genesis 1:26, where God says "Us" and "Our".
Consider the verse that says "every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." Now, consider that in regards to the Trinity. Look at what John 8:16-18 says: "But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I AM NOT ALONE. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of TWO MEN is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.” Jesus was showing that there was a distinction between himself and the Father, and that they even constituted two individuals.
I believe that the reason we believe there are only 3 persons of the Trinity is #1, the Bible as a whole only ever mentions 3, and #2, there are specific verses the list only three members. Mat 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," 2 Corinthians 13:14: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ [the Son], and the love of God [the Father], and the communion of the Holy Spirit [the Holy Spirit] be with you all. Amen." Also, just as something extra, I believe the number 3 biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection, and confirmation. If ever there were a desire to highlight an idea, thought, event or noteworthy figure in the Bible for their prominence, the number three was used to put a divine stamp of completion or fulfillment on the subject.
Yes, I definitely agree that all three members of the Trinity possess those attributes.
In my mind, and from all the studying that I've done on this topic (from both sides of the argument), I'm 100% convinced of the Trinity.
Another question, if the Bible really is saying that there is only one God but He can be made up of more than 1 person, what is there to limit us and give us such confidence that there must be only three persons rather than 4 or 5 or any other number?
The article also attributes omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence to all three persons of the trinity. Would you agree that all three (if separate persons) each have all of these attributes?
I read the article you sent, one thing I'd like to point out is that in Deut. 6:4 it says "The LORD our God is one LORD." While I agree there is only one true living God, it looks to me like this verse is used to say that there is only one God but that it doesn't mean that there can't be more than one person to God. BUT it's saying not just that God is one, but that Jehovah is only one ("is one LORD").
Can I ask, is the Godhead/trinity something that (in your mind) you are willing to question or try to understand more, or is it something that your mind is made up on and everything must fit into the trinity somehow?
Ok I will read it. I'm 29
Btw, Stephen, how old are you, if you don't mind my asking?
Ok, so I found this excellent article on the Trinity, by Answers in Genesis, that does a better job at explaining everything concisely. I would strongly encourage you to read through this carefully and prayerfully, and I believe that that you'll see how the doctrine of the Trinity is 100% biblical. 😄 https://tinyurl.com/35rthk37
Lol, don't worry, I'll try to reply soon 😂
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Saturday, Jul 1, 2023 at 5:59 PM
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The word Elohiym is used for all gods and for God. If it's strictly plural then it should translate into "In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth." The English word "deer" is plural but when translated to Spanish can be "cierva" or "ciervas" depending on if it's talking about more than one or not. But "cierva" is singular, just like the English word "God." If Elohiym is plural and is mistranslated then it should say "Gods" shouldn't it? From what I find it's never meaning more than one when talking about the Hebrew God.
Understanding that different sources might come up with different answers, this is from Encyclopedia Britannica: "Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic. The Israelites probably borrowed the Canaanite plural noun Elohim and made it singular in meaning in their cultic practices and theological reflections."
Not to be facetious but can I ask, what is the difference between there being "three distinct and separate divine persons that make up one God." And there being "three Gods that all agree with each other, have the same will, are in unison, etc."?
For your last question, I'm open to believing it if that's what it looks like the Bible is saying/teaching. But I can't believe it if it the Bible looks to be saying otherwise. I agree that if we are just debating then it won't do anything. I'm willing to study about God/the Godhead, or who God is, but in doing so we would have to look at what it looks like the Bible is saying rather than trying to make the Bible say what either of us believe.
I believe God is omnipresent, not that His flesh was, but His Spirit. John 3:13 says: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." It looks to me like the Bible doesn't say that He was exclusively just on earth.
Philippians 2:7-8: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. - I think this is talking about Him becoming a man, He could have come as a king or someone powerful but He chose to come humbly and as a servant. The exact opposite of how we would expect God to be and way less than He deserves.
Ok that makes sense on what you mean by "person." Just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly.
Also, just a question: are you even open to believing that there is a Trinity? If not, then there's really no point in debating it, since neither of us are planning to change our minds 😅
8. I believe the doctrine of the Trinity stems from the fact that the Bible shows the members of the Trinity existing simultaneously, as well as interacting with one another and referring to each other in the second and third persons. None of that would be the case if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were simply "modes" or "roles" of God that He takes on at different points in time.
7. Colossians 2:9 means that Jesus is fully God and fully man. He has a glorified body, but all the aspects of the divine nature are encapsulated in it.
6. Like I said, while Jesus was on earth, he relied on the Father, who was still in heaven, to reveal everything to him. That is how he knew all those things. The Father wasn't simply the "divine aspect of Him", as you put it, that Jesus still had on earth, bc Philippians says that Jesus emptied himself of all his glory (including his omniscience) and made himself nothing. He took on the limitations of human flesh. Plus, if Jesus referred to the Father "in heaven" while he was on earth, how could one part of Jesus be in heaven while his flesh was on earth? Jesus said he "came down from heaven."
5. Jesus is still fully God and fully man. He has a divine nature and a human nature (though not a sinful nature, to be clear). When Jesus rose from the dead, he had a glorified body, and he ascended into heaven just like that, still with a body. (see Luke 24:39: Jesus had flesh and bones after his resurrection; Phil 3:21, speaks of Jesus' glorious body, which is how our glorified bodies will be; 1 Tim 2:5 says "the MAN Christ Jesus")
4. Here is a good article that explains Isaiah 9:6, where Jesus is called "the Everlasting Father". https://tinyurl.com/27hncj4d
3. Regarding Elohyim, that Hebrew word is actually plural. And it's used right in Genesis 1 when it speaks of God creating everything. Genesis 1:26 says, "Then God (Elohyim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Now, why is God saying "let US make man"? He wasn't talking to angels. And he wouldn't be talking to Himself, if He was just one Person. So clearly it was the Persons of the Trinity conversing together.
2. When I say "person", referring to a member of the Trinity, I don't mean a human being, but rather a Divine Person: a being that has a will, personality, emotions, etc. In other words, not just some "force" or "energy".
1. Concerning Isaiah. 44:24, like I said, I believe that many times in the Old Testament when the word "Lord"/"Jehovah" is used, it is referring to the entire Godhead. In other words, every time the Bible speaks of God, it doesn't have to say "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", bc they are all one. So they can be referred to collectively, or a specific Person of the Trinity can be referred to explicitly. So the Bible clearly says that God made everything THROUGH Jesus, who is the Word that was with God in the beginning. "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:3)
Fyi, I'll probably be posting my response tomorrow 😉
Would you agree that these are somewhat accurate recaps of what the 2 views are and where they come from? or do I have a wrong understanding of your view?
And the idea of oneness comes from the fact that in the old testament it appears that there is only 1 true God who made everything by himself. And in the new testament Jesus appears to be claiming to be God and praying to a God in heaven and the Spirit has God like attributes or appears to a God living inside of people. But knowing that there is only one God, the oneness view thinks there is only one being/person/entity to God and thinks that Jesus, the Father, and Spirit therefore all have to be that one God.
From what I'm understanding the idea of the trinity comes from the fact that in the new testament it appears like Jesus is praying to a God in heaven (His father), and also claiming to be God himself, and it also looks like there's this Spirit God that now lives inside of people and comforts and helps them. But because we know that there is only one God, they cannot be 3 separate Gods so they must be 1 God but made of 3 separate persons? If I'm not understanding correct then let me know.
These are some of the reasons it looks to me like there is only 1.
Colossians 2:9 says, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." How is this possible if there are 2 others elsewhere?
I think Jesus is emphasizing that no flesh/man can know His return, not even the flesh side of Jesus. But we see He is omniscient because John 16:30 says "Now we are sure that thou knowest all things..." He knew the woman at the well had had 5 husbands, that Lazarus was dead, that He would die and be raised again. I agree that he relied on the divine aspect of Him (not that His human nature was so special but that part was like any other man.)
In Jeremiah 23:24 Jehovah says He fills heaven and earth, I don't think we can limit Him (whether a trinity or not) to just in heaven. I think it's referring to the fact that Jesus isn't just another man but that He was born of God. If Jesus is still fully man then how do we have him in us? "... Christ in you, the hope of glory." Colossians 1:27.
Sorry I see my wording on the baptism part was a little poor. I was not intending to make it about how we are baptized. My point there is that Jesus told them to use the name (not names) and when we look at when they baptized in the new testament, we only see them baptizing in the name of Jesus. This looks to me like either they are all the same, or they all have the same name. Also when we cross reference with Luke 24:47, Luke records this same thing as Jesus saying that remission of sins should be in His name. So I think either it's the same name, or the same one. Btw the name "Jesus" is just the English translation, I don't think it's the exact wording that matters for baptism.
3. Isaiah 9:6 says that the son (Jesus) will be called the councilor and the Everlasting Father, if Jesus isn't the Father then when is he called the Father? Throughout the old testament Jehovah is said to be their father a few times but in the new testament we see God being called the Father by the disciples many times, yet we don't see them calling Jesus the Father while He is on earth in flesh.
2. Part of the reason I believe it's just 1 is that God (Elohiym) is used as a generic term for any of the gods as well as for the God of Israel. LORD (Jehovah) is the name of Israel's God, kinda like Baal, Zeus, Astaroth, are names of gods that other people worshipped. Egypt had triads as their gods (elohiym), when Jehovah took Israel out of Egypt, He showed them that He was their protection and their provider. I think He was showing Israel who He was/is, it looks to me that when Moses said Jehovah our Elohiym is one Jehovah, he wasn't meaning one trinity (triad). Also when we look at Mark 1:1-3 we see that John the Baptist is the messenger crying "Prepare ye the way of the Lord." This prophecy comes from Isaiah 40:3 and the word for LORD here is Jehovah. so it looks like Jesus is Jehovah.
As for the Holy Spirit being a person, I'm not exactly sure what you are using as a definition of person. I naturally think of a human being but I'm assuming that's not what you are meaning by person?
1. Isaiah 44:24 Jehovah says that He made everything alone and by himself, and John 1 says that Jesus made all things. So would that not mean that if Jehovah is a trinity then Jesus is the one of the 3 that made everything? Could the "another" be that Jesus was no longer going to comfort them as a man like He had been then? If you keep reading vs 17-18, Jesus specifies that the disciples knew the other comforter because He was with them and would be in them. And then says "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." It looks to me like Jesus is specifying that it's from God not man.
When Jesus was on earth, He wasn't omniscient, as He emptied himself of His divine glory and power. Instead, He relied on the Father to reveal things to Him. Thus, the Father had not revealed to Jesus the day or the hour of his return.
Also, to answer a few of the other points you made: Yes, God the Father is a Spirit, but Jesus became flesh. And even now He is still fully God and fully man. He has a glorified, resurrected body. This is one aspect that makes Jesus the Son separate or unique from the Father. Jesus has a body, but the Father is a Spirit. John explains that the Word was in the beginning, both WITH God and of God. But then he says, “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14). Notice it says he came FROM the Father, meaning the Father remained in heaven, which is why we see Jesus praying to "Our Father in Heaven".
A3: There are many names that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have. Sometimes they even share certain names. However, they are still distinct persons. When we baptize someone in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we can say just that. After all, those names themselves are their names. Idk why oneness ppl make a big deal about someone being baptized that way, bc it's using the exact words that Jesus spoke. How can you go wrong with that?
A2: I believe that many times in Scripture, including in Deut. 6:4, when it says "the LORD", it is referring to the entire Trinity. After all, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one entity, so they can be referred to as one. Now, sometimes, you'll notice a distinction between the Father and the Son, when it's talking about them at the same time. For example, in Ps. 110:1, it says "The LORD (Hebrew word is Jehovah) said to my Lord (Hebrew word is Adonai): Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." It's showing the Father talking to Jesus. This is a reason why they are PERSONS of the Trinity, and not simply "roles" or "modes" of God, as you believe they are. If they were just that, then they wouldn't be able to interact with each other, as you see the persons of the Trinity doing in many places. God can't be talking to another "mode" of Himself. Also, each Person exists eternally at the same time, not just each form at one point in time.
Also, you might say that the Holy Spirit isn't a person. However, He is clearly shown as a person in multiple places in the Bible. He is not simply a force, nor energy, nor is He merely the mind of God, nor the presence of God, but He is actually a Divine Person. Here is an article that demonstrates the personhood of the Holy Spirit. https://tinyurl.com/4wafmws7
A1: The Father is the Father because He is our heavenly Father. He is our Father because He made us, He is the one who provides for us, etc. Jesus also referred to Him as Father, because Jesus is the Son of God, as He came from God to the earth through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father, as shown in John 14: "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you ANOTHER Counselor to be with you forever–the Spirit of truth." (v. 16) Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as ANOTHER, which indicates He is a separate person from the Father and Jesus. Also, Jesus said the Father would send the Holy Spirit. (v. 26) One doesn't send himself, so it again shows that the Holy Spirit was a separate person from the Father.
Q3: If there are 3 persons then what is the name of the Father? Matthew 28:19 tells us to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. If they are 3 separate persons then don't we need to know their names?
I do see how they are distinct roles or attributes or forms that God takes on, but I don't see how they are separate persons.
Q2: When the word LORD is used in the old testament (Jehovah or Yehovah or however it's supposed to be spelled) is that referring to one person of the trinity, or the trinity as a whole? for example Deut. 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Is he saying the LORD is one trinity, or the LORD is one person of the 3?
Q1: I'm wondering, according to the trinity, in what way is the Father the Father? It's the Holy Ghost that overshadowed Mary and that's why Jesus was called the Son of God (Luke 1:35) this is part of why I believe the Spirit is also the same as the Father.
#9 I think Jesus on earth is God lowering Himself to flesh, and that is the closest we can get to seeing God as a Spirit since we are sinful flesh.
#8 the "right hand" is an indication of power many times throughout the old testament. If the right hand of God is referring to a different person, then in Acts 7:59 why did Stephen call the Father, Jesus? "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
#7 In what way is the Father the Father of Jesus if Jesus was never created? His flesh was not going to remain on the earth and He was going to the position of fatherhood in heaven.
#6 "...Unto thee shall all flesh come." Psalm 65:2. Being manifest in the flesh, He made Himself subject to temptation. No one can overcome sin on their own and likewise, Jesus being the perfect example, could not just rely on the flesh that He put Himself into.
#5 Paul is emphasizes that it is through Jesus that we get our salvation. He is saying that there is no other way to get to God (not through priests) and the Jews mindset being that there was only one God, Paul is saying that Jesus is that one God.
#4 If they are separate and the Son is referring to a 2nd person of a trinity then would we have to say that Jesus isn't all knowing or omniscient?
#3 Jesus knew that He wasn't forsaken because He knew all things (John 18:4) but He still had the feelings of being forsaken. He said a few times that He was going to rise the 3rd day but that didn't take away from the human feelings He had.
I think there is a distinction between the flesh part of Him. In John 1 we see that the Word (Jesus) created all things and was from the beginning, but His human flesh was not always there. He was "made of a woman" Galatians 4:4
Thank you Roger, I'm not saying there is no distinction, but I don't think there are separate persons/beings. I think Jesus is fully man and fully God. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and a spirit doesn't have flesh (Luke 24:39). So God, a Spirit, had to take on flesh, but He doesn't want people to look at the flesh aspect of Him but at who He really is.
I can provide you with MANY more verses that show the distinction between the Persons of the Trinity, but hopefully you get the idea 🙃
#9: “The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.” (Heb 1:3, cf. Heb 8:1) If the Son is the Father, then why does it say that He is the radiance of God’s glory, and why again does it say He sat down at the Father’s right hand?
#8: But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." (Act 7:55-56) If Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus, then how was Stephen able to see Jesus the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God?
#7: Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (Joh 20:17) If Jesus is the Father, why did He say He was ascending to the Father, and why did He call the Father “My God”?
#6: Read the High Priestly Prayer of Jesus to the Father in John 17. Why did Jesus pray to the Father in John 17 and many other places if He is the Father, since He would be talking to Himself?
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus,” (1Ti 2:5) How can the man Jesus Christ be the one mediator between God and man, if He is the same person as the Father? How does He act as a mediator between man and Himself?
#4: "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mar 13:32) How can only the Father know something and not the Son unless they are two distinct Persons?
#3: “About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?’ (which means ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’).” (Mat 27:46) How could Jesus ask why God had forsaken Him if they are exactly the same Person?
#2:“But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.” (Mat 10:33) How can Jesus disown anyone before the Father if they are the same?
#1: "I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain." I will proclaim the LORD's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your Father. (Psa 2:6-7) Why does Jehovah God need to install His King on His holy mountain and declare the King to be His Son and Himself as the King’s Father, if there is no distinction between them at all? How could this be possible if they are not distinct from one another?
Hey, Stephen. So, first I wanna say that I definitely agree that Michael the archangel is NOT Jesus. However, I would like to show you a number of verses that prove the existence of the Trinity. Now, I want to make it clear that I do NOT at all believe that there are three Gods, but rather that there is ONE God, who eternally exists in three distinct persons.
To the 2nd point, Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus is the Everlasting Father.
And the 2nd might have more push back but, it's said that Michael/Jesus is one of the princes in Daniel can be because He is one of the Trinity. But can I question where the Trinity comes from in the first place? Because Deut. 6:4 says: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
Hey just looking back at some of the discussions, can I bring up a point about Jesus being vs not being Michael? 1st point being that when Jude was written the name Jesus was now known, so why would Jude write Michael instead of Jesus if they are the same?
I’m leaving for a while, so I won’t be able to respond 🙃
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
With the view of eternal torment, God’s justice is never satisfied, never finished, rebellion and sin exist forever, and evil continues for all of eternity. The view of actual destruction of the wicked at the final judgment would mean that God’s justice is actually complete, that the wicked are no more, sin is done away with, and that He is ultimately victorious over evil because it is eradicated.
Every thing you're saying makes a lot of sense, however there is still some reasons I'm inclined to think that the wicked are destroyed,
I don’t know how comforting that is though. I know for me, it is very disturbing to think that my uncle is not in heaven, especially since he lived such a lonely life. But he actively rejected God up until his passing, so unless something happened the last 24 hours of his life, he’s in hell. And I hate that. But, I know God is just and fair because He promises He is. And because He is greater than me, I can’t put God on trial for his fairness, even for something that feels as unfair as sending my uncle to hell forever. I trust God’s promises, and that’s all I have
On your first question, so, I think while all unbeliever go to an eternal hell, there are different experiences or degrees of how bad it is. Luke 12:47-48 could mean hell is a less heavy punishment for some, and Luke 10:12-14 seems to say judgement will be worse for some than others. It’s not super clear what the difference is, but it does seem like some have less harsh punishments
Second death is where I get the idea of physical vs spiritual death. Physical being the first death, and spiritual being the second death in hell
what do you think the Bible means when it talks about the second death?
hmm yeah you're Answers make sense, I can think of a few things to say back to them but never mind for now. I suppose my real confusion is still how every person who doesn't believe is going to get the same terrible punishment- e.g Hitler is going to get the same punishment as my Atheist friend?
Ok, so, I’ve answered your questions, but I don’t think those are the real problem. Would you agree that the real issue is, how could a perfect, loving, and just God send someone to hell for eternity?
4. How can the wicked be judged if they all get the same punishment? You will either be judged, or not judged. In other words, you will either go to hell, or to heaven. The wicked are judged by being sent to hell, that’s what being judged means. Note: I think what you meant is how can people with different amounts of sin get the same eternal punishment? Infinity plus infinity is infinity, so an infinite infraction plus an infinite infraction is an infinite infraction. So, no matter how many sins you have, they all equal infinity, thus having an infinite punishment.
3. Since humans haven’t eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, doesn’t that mean they will not live forever? Simply put, to be in hell is to be dead, utterly ruined, without hope, separate from God. How you can describe it as “living” or “immortal” is beyond me.
2. How do you explain verses that say destruction? Example verse: “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” 2 Thessalonians 1:9. This is the definition of the greek word translated as destruction: “3639 ólethros (from ollymi/‘destroy’) – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros (‘ruination’) however does NOT imply ‘extinction’ (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete ‘undoing.’” The word for eternal (aiónios) is also the same word used to describe eternal life, so it means eternal undoing, not ceasing to exist. (Sources: https://biblehub.com/greek/3639.htm and https://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm)
1. Any specific verses mention eternal hell for sin? “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”Matthew 25:46 - eternal punishment is contrasted with eternal life. These are the same in that they are eternal, eternal meaning that the person will be conscious forever (if you believe they will not be conscious forever in hell, then they won’t be conscious forever in heaven). They are different in that one is eternal punishment separate from God, while the other is eternal life with God.
the bible also says the wicked shall be judged, but how are they to be judged if ultimately they're all going to get the same punishment of eternal hell?
Genesis clearly states that man was cast out of the garden of Eden lest after they eat of the knowledge tree, they eat of the tree of life and become immortal- does this not show that one can only live forever (in hell) if they eat from the tree of life? which the bible states only the righteous can eat of
I'm not convinced that every human deserves eternal suffering for not accepting Jesus, I see the reason in how committing sin against an infinitely good God could give reason for it, but are there any specific verses in the bible that mention this? and how do you explain the verses which clearly state destruction?
Because all their suffering will go away
how is having your soul destroyed going to another heaven-
Ok, well that was a trick question, because that means the wicked go to a lesser heaven of non-existence. So, to me either way is universalism - the belief that all people will eventually go to heaven, even if it’s not the same heaven
Do you believe the wicked/unbeliever goes to heaven after burning hell for their due time, or that they cease to exist?
Eye for eye still holds true. If you commit a sin against an infinitely good God, then you’ve committed an infinite infraction. So, you get eye for eye, infinite punishment for infinite infraction
That’s true, I never made that connection before - the death referring to spiritual death. However I am still inclined to think that the wicked do not burn in hell forever, although I realize hell burns forever, but the verses which describe hell don’t say eternal death - (which would imply spiritual death and separation from God like you said), but on a few accounts in uses the word “destruction” (Mat 10:28, 2 Thes 1:9). Not only do the verses never explicitly say the wicked burn forever, destruction is mentioned. I have no doubt that the wicked are punished forever with eternal separation from God, what I am conveying is that their wrongdoings would be inflicted back upon them and they should be tortured with no more pain than that they caused, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth style - and after God has his vengeance & repays (Romans 12:19), they then are cast into everlasting contempt / destruction / punishment of separation from God as mat 10:28 explicitly says with the destruction of both the wickeds body & soul (both spiritual and physical death).
Also, eternal hell has been the orthodox view from the early church to the present day
So, basically you have to distinguishing between physical death and spiritual death. Physical is the death of the body, but spiritual is the eternal separation of the soul from God, which is an existence of the worst torment imaginable and the very opposite of life
Similarly, having eternal life doesn’t just mean existing forever, it means being with God forever. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23, and “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Romans 6:22
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—” Ephesians 2:1-2 - in this passage it says “you were dead in your sins.” but Paul is clearly writing to people who are physically still alive, but spiritually they are dead. And they are spiritually dead because of their sin which separates them from God (Romans 3:23)
Death means separation from God, not ceasing to exist. So to say the wicked die means they are eternally separated from God
If you look through all the verses on hell, it gets really interesting because many of them don't specifically say the wicked will burn in hell forever, rather they will have everlasting "punishment" "contempt" "destruction". and when you think about it, the wages of sin is death, and reward of the righteous is eternal life, so having the wicked burn forever in hell would be strange since not only do they never die, they also have eternal life.
but is the eternal punishment mentioned in Matthew burning in hell forever, or is it separation from God forever - 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says they will experience eternal destruction "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"
Pretty sure that the Bible says that the wicked will burn forever and ever. In Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."
Hey y'all I'm new, seems this group is on the brink of death so maybe you've already discussed this but how about a lively debate on whether the wicked burn forever in hell or only for a certain period of time?
Umm, why no more debates? Things were getting interesting, I can't afford this group going inactive.
ohhh ok thanks for clarifying 😅
unless Avery u meant what ME said and i misread 😅
Father Son Spirit one God makes sense to me but Son is Father doesnt 😅😅
yes but saying Jesus IS God the Father is different than what you said at least to me since it sounds like theyre the same person
Jesus is God and equal and one with God the Father, which is confusing, but the Father, Son and Spirit are one God, equal and unified in purpose. Even tho Jesus is God, it doesn't mean He has the exact same role as God the Father still.
are you saying Jesus is the Son of God and God the Father the same time? 🤔🤔
seems like the marker group was deleted 🥲😢😭
It's actually Will's group 😅
It’s called OSAS Affirmed
Whoops, sorry about that @franklyj 😅 I forgot to make the group public again...you should be able to find it now 😉
might be public again later
i think it was made private
@Will do you have your eternal security position written out anywhere else?
@markerman Where did your other group go? I really wanted to finish reading @Will 's writings.
hey, I want to know what you think about Sunday. I didn’t get to read the whole thing bc Marilyn deleted it.
where did all the action go
👋 there cannot be two paradises. buh bye 👋
Lol, thanks for the input! 😆
Just thought that needed to be said.. L O L 😄😆
Sorry to interrupt but, me seeing debates, really help me learn.. like, totally, I love watching and reading debates. Good stuff people 👏🏽👏🏽 But in a debate, one of ya will always be wrong... I’ve read some interesting points, statements, questions, ect in this group. Whoever made this group should be thanked, now ppl like me are learning by reading posts in this group. *Really educational*
Besides, it seems you're avoiding what I showed about the rich man and Lazurus. Since Jesus NEVER used fake concepts in his parables, then that proves that what is shown about Lazurus and the rich man after death is indeed true-to-life.
Since it appears from Scripture that the righteous dead did not go to heaven before Jesus' ascension (Eph 4:8-9), then the place in Sheol for the righteous dead (Abraham's bosom) was what Jesus was referring to when he said "paradise". Jesus wasn't asleep in the grave when he died, as it shows in Eph 4:8-9 and 1 Peter 3:19. If Jesus wasn't in soul sleep, then that proves that the other dead are not.
Roger, let use some logic. You think that Jesus really ment today you will be with me in paradise. Didn’t Jesus not go to heaven for three days?? So if he did not go to heaven for three days then why would he say that?? Did he actually mean today??
Sorry I saw you posted some of this. I didn't read everything.
2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible,
@Anonymousy, I just hopped back in because I have more time right now.😉
Yeah about the Luke 23:43 verse, how can you just change the Bible because you think it was written wrong it's still what it says.🤔 Also good point Roger, it would be completely unnecessary to say today, obviously it was that day.( sorry that was way down there)
wow! you guys really went at it!
That's debatable, so let's just look at it from the perspective I gave in my former posts ⬇⬇
first. Do you think it is not a parable?
Srry Roger! I was very busy the last couple of days so I couldn’t answer your question😅… Nw to answer it…
Btw, the Greek word for hell there is Hades, which means: "properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell." Also, when it says "Abraham's bosom" or "side" it never says that everyone was on Abraham's bosom. It just said that the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's side. While the other righteous dead were in "Abraham's bosom" it simply indicates a place of comfort and consolation, where Abraham and the other righteous dead were.
Regardless of whether the story was a parable or not, "while the parables are fictitious, they never indulge in the fanciful or fantastic, but remain true-to-life." You have to look at it in the context of all the other parables Jesus told. Did any of them use fake or fictional concepts? Never. Not once.
Roger I ask one thing of you pls don’t skim this, but read it
Jesus was using something they had known in their time as an illustration. He added some things to make is a little bit more interesting. To make it penetrating upon his listeners. Now one listening to Jesus would have thought in there wildest dreams that everything in the parable was true. It does not matter what church we belong to on earth we need to know Jesus.
Part 8. Can a person carry out a normal conversation while being tortured in flames? Like he is doing in the story? Do you think you could be tortured with fire and still have a normal conversation? No. If taken literally would it make any sense? No it doesn’t. Bc Hell fire is not the main point. And death is not the main point. The point has not got to do with the state of the dead. It has to do with faithfulness it has to do with stewardship. It has to do with the gospel commission. So what we see here is Jesus is trying to straighten out some of the thinking of the jewish nation. They thought if you were a jew you had it half way to heaven. It’s automatic. If you were a gentile you were automatically lost. If you were rich that is a sign that God is favoring you. You must be righteous bc he is favoring you with riches. If you were the poor you must a sinner and God is cursing you to poverty. Jesus totally turns the tables on them. He has got the gentiles saved and the jews lost. The rich man lost the poor man saved. He is turning the tables on them. Right?? He was showing them that if you were jewish you didn’t have some automatic pathway to heaven.
Part 7. 4. Do souls have fingers, eyes, and tongues? When ppl talk about theology it is important to be consistent. When ppl say there is a really hell fire going on right now. They don’t say there’s body down there. They say there’s an immortal soul. Something without a body. Yet in the story you got a really person with body parts. He got a tongue he wants to cool. He has a finger. He has eyes. So no it is not consistent with the own theology of it all. 5. Now he asks for a drop of water would that really help. If this story was true and he said I want a drop of water would that really help? No. It’s not feasible that a drop of water would get there and help. It’s not realistic
Part 6.If the story is really true let’s talk about why the story can’t literal. 1.If everyone who died is righteous Abraham would have to have a pretty big possum That’s not were the righteous go. I don’t think Abraham would like that very much 2. Is only Lazarus going to reside there?? No. 3.Can ppl in Heaven an Hell really see each other and talk? How feasibly would it under the circumstances? You know firemen have to yell over the the roar of a flame. What about a chasm big enough to hold all the unsaved? Well they couldn’t hear or even have a conversation like in the story right hear. Would it really be pleasurable to be in heaven and look down and see ppl that were lost?? What if you knew those ppl?? A relative or a friend? There they were calling out to you? And wanting to have a conversation? And you see they are in agony. Would that be heaven?? No. It is no feasible under any circumstances. It’s just a symbolic story
Part 5. I am going to point out something to you. The word hell there is not Gahanna, a place of burning, it’s the word hades that means the grave. How do we know it is a parable?
It starts like a parable. Luke 16:19. “A certain rich man” Luke 12:16 He spoke a parable, “a certain rich man” Luke 13:6. He spoke also this parable, “a certain rich man had a fig tree” Luke 16:1. A certain rich man”(The parable of the unjust steward) Luke 19:11,12. A parable, a certain nobleman” Luke 20:9. This parable, “A certain rich man” Jesus started these parable with these expressions a certain man or a certain rich man. Outside of parables Jesus never used that expression. HE reserved it for parables.
Part 4“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”” Luke 16:19-31
Part 3.““There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
Part 2 So no it is an illustrative parable it is not a story that everything is literally true. It is an object lesson. So you don’t take Jotham’s story with the trees that talk and the brambles talking the fig tree talk and all that stuff literally? No, you have to let the story speak the moral lesson, but not every thing in the story is true.
Part 1. What about the rich man and lazars? It called the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. And once it is understood as a parable it takes away the confusion of it because even your scholars will emit that you don’t take parable literally. Parables are meant to teach moral principles, but not everything in a parable is literal. “And all the men of Shechem gathered together, all of Beth Milo, and they went and made Abimelech king beside the terebinth tree at the pillar that was in Shechem.” If you have a Bible with marginal readings it will say Jotham’s parable. “Now when they told Jotham, he went and stood on the top of Mount Geirzim, and lifted his voice and cried out. And he said to them: listen to me, you men of Shechem, that God may listen to you! The trees once went forth to anoint a king over them. And the said to the olive tree, reign over us!” So we got a story with trees talking. Do trees literally talk?? No. Do they really talk?? No. Do they talk in parables? Yes. But the olive tree said unto them, - Judges 9:9 And the trees said to the fig tree, - 9:10 But the fig trees said unto them, - 9:11 The said the trees unto the vine, - 9:12 And the vine said unto them, - 9:13 Then said all the trees unto the bramble,-14 And the bramble said unto the trees,-
okay, First let my get on my laptop….. it might take awhile… My brother is using it r n
But, yeah, let's move on to the rich man and Lazurus.
That was exactly what I told you I knew you would say, but you said that wasn't what you were going to say, and it actually was 🤔 And I said that that wouldn't make any sense for him to say that he was telling him today, bc that's just unnecessary. Plus, Jesus never used that expression anywhere else--"I tell you today"
there are other verses that have the same thing. they put the comma in the wrong spot. If you don’t agree that is okay…. Do you want to move onto Lazarus and the rich man?? or do you have questions?.
the verse with the correct punctuation should look like this “Assuredly, I say to you, today, you will be with be in Paradise ”
When the Bible was written it did not have punctuations. It did not have periods, commas, and exclamation marks ect.. So when the translator translated the Bible they had to add punctuation. So the verse with punctuation is “And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”” Luke 23:43
Where is it in the Bible?? I can’t find it
Ok, let's first talk about that verse about what Jesus said on the cross.
gtg.. I will be right back in one minute
well let’s look at the verse
I know that one…. there is one thing……
Well then, what were you going to say?
Besides, there are many more verses I have to back up my belief. For example, the story of the rich man and Lazarus. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." (Luke 16:22-23)
no, that is actually not what I was going to say
I already know the whole run around with that verse you are talking about. You try to say that he was saying "I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise", but tbh, that wouldn't make any sense if he had to say that he was telling him today, bc that's kind of obvious. It makes more sense that he would be telling him, "Today you will be with me in paradise"
Exactly, while we are at home in the body (alive), we are absent from the Lord, but as soon as we die, we go to be with Him.
Sorry, but I'm not interested in having a video call to debate...
what time zone are you in?
would you be up for a zoom call or something?? it is kinda hard doing like this….. we don’t have to….. I don’t know what time it is there, but if you want to that would make it easier….. I am open almost anytime of the day
I will give you a verse that you may not remember, but it backs up you beliefs if you don’t understand it… When Jesus was hanging on the cross he told the other person next to him that he would be in heaven. Do you remember that??
if you scroll down please see what I said to memorizer
If you look before that verse it says “So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight.” II Corinthians 5:6-7
Actually it does. When it says in 2 Cor 5:8, "AWAY from the body and at home with the Lord", that shows that there isn't soul sleep before the resurrection, because at the resurrection, the soul will be reunited with the body. Until then, the soul is away from the body and at home with the Lord in heaven. Also, when he says in Phil 1:23 that he desires to DEPART and be with Christ, he's showing that at death, the soul DEPARTS from the body, and goes to be with Christ.
that doesn’t say that you do to eaten IMMEDIATELY
...The ones that I just gave a little while ago (2 Cor. 5:8 and Phil. 2:3), as well as others. All you said to them was "okay".
Yes, I believe that when someone dies, they immediately go to heaven or hell, not soul sleep.
I believe that when someone dies they don’t go immediately to heaven or Hell.
What do you believe?? do you be that you instantly go to heaven or Hell?? I believe heaven is for the saved and he’ll is for ppl who are unsaved
When Jesus said they were sleeping, it was simply a figure of speech that he was using to show that for him, raising them from the dead was just as easy as waking a sleeping person. "His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead," (John 11:12-14)
We're debating about the state of the dead, which you believe is soul sleep, and which I believe is heaven for the righteous, and hell for the wicked.
wait…. are we debate whether you will go straight to heaven?? I am kinda confused…. what are we debating??
what did Jesus mean when he told Mary and Martha that lazarus was just sleeping??.. or when Jesus told the dead girl’s parents that she was still sleeping??
@Anonymousey, I can debate with you about soul sleep 😉 That verse that Memorizer gave is an excellent one that proves that a believer will go straight to heaven when they die (and not into soul sleep), bc Paul is saying that he prefers to be away from the body (to die) and to be at home with the Lord (in heaven).. He also says in Phil 1:23, "I desire to depart (from the body--die) and be with Christ which is better by far." Again, he's saying that when his soul departs from the body (which is what returns to the ground) his soul will go to be with Christ in heaven.
Yeah, but I don't have time to write out everything.
that does not show that you soul goes straight to heaven
that does not show your side
but I'm done for now. I don't really have time to explain everything, but this topic has been brought up before and went into depth if you want to check that out.
I accidentally went on to a different topic
2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, King James Version.Revelation 3:10 KJV Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, King James Version.
I believe your soul goes straight to heaven when you die.
Some people believe your soul just sleeps when you die until the rapture.
We WERE talking about if you go straight to Heaven or hell when you die.
ummm... I'm not sure what we're talking about. I think we're on different pages, but if your debating whether Heaven is eternal... well it is it says eternal life. So I'm not sure where your going with this.
I said what I had to say….. what do you think?
Were you going to say something else?
This is a poignant, soul-baring moment from the apostle Paul. He is not suicidal, but he is honest about his deepest desires. He would rather be with the Lord than in his mortal, burdened, groaning, dying body. For the first time in this chapter, he describes being in his future, eternal body with Christ as being "at home." He is utterly convinced that it is where he is headed. Heaven is where he is meant to be forever. Paul's faith that the glory of his eternal life will far outweigh and outlast the suffering of earthly life makes him want that life more than this one. Of course it does. How could it not?
That same faith, though, gives him courage. Knowing his eternal fate is secure gives him fearlessness to keep going in this life. It emboldens Paul to stay on the path God has called him to. He is not actively seeking death; he is simply ready to go whenever God calls him home. Until then, he will keep working at what God has given him to do in the here and now.
Okay, if you don’t want to do what I ask then at least let us pray to ask God to send his Holy Spirit to guide us….
if you don't want to talk about this just tell me.😉
ummm... I don't really think this is relevant to the discussion...
I like to find common ground with ppl/get to know them…. Sooo why don’t I go first. I am Anonymousey. My favorite animal is dogs. my favorite color is orange. And my favorite food is pasta…. what is your favorite color, food, animal???
before I answer that question can I do something??
Now... what do you think?
Yes, but for hell its not if your bad, it's if your not save.😉
2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, King James Version.
do you think you do to heaven immediately if you are good and hell immediately if you are bad
sorry for the confusion.😉
What do you think happens to your soul when you die?
You mean about the rapture, or what happens to your soul when you die?
I can change the topic… state of the dead….. Antichrist…..
If it's about the Sabbath, no, but if it's about something else, then possibly 😉😅
sorry Roger, but I now you will not want to do it
Memorizer, do you want to have a debate??
are you guys actually going to start a debate!!!! finally.😂😜
Roger can I ask you a question??
Alright, no problem! Tho when you get a chance, I'd still like to see your full response 😉
This isn’t my full response - I haven’t had time to write it so down. But a summary is that I’ve concluded one can lose their salvation if they inwardly reject Christ or if they kill themselves. That would mean I am close to but not really OSAS
Ok, np 😉 I have work, so I wouldn't even get around to responding until this weekend anyway 😅
I have several tests this week, I’ll have something by this weekend though
Lol, yes he did quite well
Roger I want to say Well done for standing up against “The Devil” 👍👏🏽 Well done 👏🏽
Thank, that is very helpful!
4. And obviously God is the only one who can justify us. We cannot justify ourselves. "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? IT IS GOD WHO JUSTIFIES." (Rom 8:33)
3. Jesus said: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last." (Jn 15:16) But obviously each of us has a freewill and we can decide to reject God's calling (Luke 7:30) And it does require something on our part to believe, repent, and confess our faith in Jesus. But we are NOT saved by our own righteousness, as I have already stated.
2. You are correct that adoption does only happen once and that a parent does not disown his child every time he screws up. This will actually answer your final question, but I'll say it now, cause it ties in. Now, I will admit that I could be wrong on this point, but this is the way I see it. Everyday, you or I or any believer will commit some sin, whether it be an outburst of anger, lying, complaining, etc. I DO NOT believe that that means one has lost his salvation. That is where grace comes in. The ideal would be for us to immediately repent when we realize we have offended the Lord, but I believe God gives us grace if we don't right away. Now, if one dies right at that moment, would he make it to Heaven in that state? Only God knows, He is the Judge, not I. That's why I think it's best for us to keep short accounts with God and not allow things to get swept under the rug and forgotten about. In the case of Peter disowning the Lord, I absolutely believe he would not have made it to Heaven in that state. 2 Tim 2:12b says: "If we disown him, he will also disown us." (Also see Mat 10:33) And if we deliberately keep on sinning and allow it to build up in our lives, eventually, little by little, we drift from the Lord and fall from our steadfastness. (2 Pt 3:17, Heb 10:26-27, 2 Pt 2:20)
What I said in my posts could answer your questions, but just so everything is clear, I will answer point by point 😉
1. Maybe for some, that idea could help, but I think for most, it gives them a license of sorts to say, "I'm not perfect, and I'm not aiming for perfection, but there's grace." (I actually know a Baptist who apparently thinks that way.) I believe it's a pillow to put ppl back to sleep when the Holy Spirit is convicting them; and I think it's slippery ice that allows one to stray further and further from God. We can be liberated to do good when we are saved and become slaves of righteousness (Rom 6:18, 22), without having to believe in OSAS. Peter puts it this way: "Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God." (1 Pt 2:16)
If you already answered these, and I just missed it in your response just refer me to the place so you don’t have to repeat everything again 🙃
Before I respond I have several questions (and yes I will be thorough in my response): 1. What do you think about the idea of OSAS liberating a person to do good (beginning of 1st post)? 2. What do you believe about the idea of an adoption happening once (end of 1st post)? What do you think about the idea that believing/choosing in Christ is not an act of our righteousness but an act of God alone (7th post at Romans 3:10-12 to 8th post)? What do you think of the idea that justification is an act of God alone (post 9)? Finally, just to clarify you believe that we are not saved from the moment we commit a sin until the time we repent of it, correct?
Now, I don't want a rushed answer from you. Please take the time, as I did for you and read carefully through my comments to fully absorb everything. Then state your rebuttal or answer 😉
And God says clearly in 2 Chron 7:14, "IF my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and TURN from their wicked ways, THEN WILL I hear from heaven and will FORGIVE their sin and will heal their land."
For, keep in mind, when Isaiah said, "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon", he was speaking to those who were once God's ppl but who had turned away.
You said--and I quote--"if a Christian does not repent of a [repeated] sin, at the very least I think they should question whether they believed at all." Maybe so, but don't you think they should rather say, "Have I believed in vain?" 1 Cor 15:2: "By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. OTHERWISE, YOU HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN." Or, "Am I standing firm in my faith?" (Is 7:9b) "If you do not stand firm in your faith, YOU WILL NOT STAND AT ALL." Or, "Do I have, 'a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God'? One that has been, 'hardened by sin's deceitfulness'? (Heb 3:12-13)
And Jesus said, "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But IF you DO NOT forgive men their sins, YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS." (Mat 6:14-15) What happens if God does not forgive our sins?
Now about your statement that we are not to live in condemnation and fear--again, you're absolutely correct! We are to live in freedom in the Lord! And do you also believe that because we love the Lord so much, we are to live to please the Lord? I'm sure you do. So, in that case, our obedience comes from love, not fear. (Jn 14:15) However, there actually is that healthy balance of the fear of the Lord in there as many verses in the Bible indicate including Phil 2:12b, which says, "continue to work out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING". When a child loves his father, he will do what he says, and when he does wrong, will he just go on as if nothing happened? No, he will go to his father and say, "I'm sorry, please forgive me", just as the prodigal son did. If he doesn't do that and says to himself, "My father knows I love him. He will overlook this wrong even if I don't apologize." Don't you think the father would be left wondering why his son did not take the time and show the remorse to repent? When we sin, we should feel the need to go to God and repent. If we don't, that shows a big problem on our part, not on God's. "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED that you CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO will be CUT OFF." (Rom 11:22)
Well, that verse says it pretty plainly. But also doesn't Jesus address this when he says: "Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have FALLEN! REPENT and do the things you did at first. IF YOU DO NOT REPENT, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." (Rev 2:4-5) And in chapter 3:15-17: "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are LUKEWARM–neither hot nor cold–I AM ABOUT TO SPIT YOU OUT OF MY MOUTH. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." Later on in verse 19, He pleads with them to "be earnest and REPENT".
So, in light of all I just said: What happens to a carnal Christian who doesn't repent?
Coincidentally, my Bible reading today included these verses, "It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SINS, AS WE HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU AND WARNED YOU. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit." (1 Thess 4:3-8)
Back to my point that God will not let carnality into Heaven, Revelation clearly states that we must wash our robes if we are to be allowed to enter. “Blessed are those who WASH THEIR ROBES, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." (Rev 22:14-15)
But moving on from that, I'd like to briefly address what you said about "some carnal Christians" using grace as a license for sin. You are absolutely correct! I actually believe that a great number who believe in OSAS do. That begs the question: will God allow anything carnal to enter His kingdom? I think not! Revelation 21:27 says: "NOTHING impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." Please don't say that everyone who has ever said the sinner's prayer or at one point was saved still has his name in the Book of Life. If you think so, take a look at these verses where Jesus is rebuking the church in Sardis: "Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY it, and REPENT. BUT IF YOU DO NOT WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a FEW people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who OVERCOMES will, like them, be dressed in white. I WILL NEVER BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." (Rev 3:2-5) Notice this promise comes only to those who overcome, which obviously means that there will be those who don't, and it is very possible for someone's name to be blotted out of the book of life.
Alright, whew, I can get my thoughts in order now😌 I'm back, and I have read thru your posts more thoroughly. Now I see exactly what you are saying. I want to absolutely make it clear that I am by no means saying that we are saved by our own righteousness. I was only using those verses to point out what the parallel is today.
Anonymousey, well, we're already having a debate right now, so maybe we can save that discussion for later 😅😉
what do u think about the anti-christ?
Will, that's quite a bit for me to read thru, especially when I have a lot going on already. So I didn't read every detail, but I get your point. I absolutely agree that we are not saved by our own righteousness and it's only through God's grace, but you also have to balance it out with other Scripture as well. There is SO MUCH I could and want to say, but I'm a bit weary right now, and my brain doesn't want to think 😅 So, allow me some time, and then maybe I can collect my thoughts and give you a clear answer as opposed to a bunch of garble 😂
After God did all that for us, what did we do?
Since the righteousness came from God, we are not trusting in our past righteousness to save us, but God’s work of righteousness. The act of justification, then, is also entirely the work of God. “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those HE predestined, HE also called; those HE called, HE also justified; those HE justified, HE also glorified.”
Also, consider these verses about God doing the work of salvation. Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; Acts 13:48; Acts 16:14
31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give
repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God
has granted repentance that leads to life.”
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and
glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a
worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to
what was said by Paul.
2. OSAS do not trust in their past, present, or future righteousness to do anything for them at all, let alone save them from sins. Most OSAS, including me, believe in the doctrine of Total Depravity, which is the idea that we are at our core perverted and evil (ie fallen), this evil nullifies any good that we do. Isaiah 64:6 - “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” Romans 3:10-12 also explains that no one seeks after God, “As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” - Since we do not seek God naturally, it is the next conclusion that God enables us to seek him and to put our faith in Him. It is not a work that we do, but an act of God. It was not by our righteousness that we had faith, but through God’s righteous enablement. Ephesians 2: 8-10 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” - We are saved for good works, not by good works. And these works were prepared by God, not us.
I’ll get to my second point in a bit. I have to leave for a while
Some carnal Christian do use OSAS as an excuse to do evil. But Paul answers the question when he says, “What shall we say than? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be!” Romans 6:1-2, notice the sinning would cause grace to increase, though we are told by Paul not to do this on purpose. Also, it does not make sense for Paul to address whether people should keep sinning, if they would be condemned to hell for their sin because then it would be obvious why they shouldn’t keep sinning. The next part of that passage shows that the grace is there so that we may live free from sin through Christ. Romans 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.”
2 Corinthians 3:4-6, 4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Hebrews 2:14-15, "14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death."
Romans 8:15 - “For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba!” Father!”
@Vera, two things, 1. It seems like you believe that OSAS is an excuse to do evil. It isn’t. Instead, it liberates us to persevere in doing good without the fear of being in condemnation over and over again. When people live in fear and shame and guilt, each fall is harder to get up from. But when failure is not such a big deal, people can get up again and start over easily. I know how this goes having lived a good portion of my life with intense guilt and shame over the tiniest infractions. But God did not give us a Spirit of Fear, but a spirit of adoption. Adoption happens once, otherwise it is not an adoption. Imagine disowning your adopted child every time they screwed up? That’s cruel, not parental. Abusive, not instructive.
It's quite a plain verse to me 😄
It's the same as when a wicked man turns from his sins; he will not go to hell for the sins he's repented of
Will, the point of that verse (Ez 33:12-13) is this: if God tells a righteous man (i.e. someone made righteous by Jesus' death on the cross) that he will SURELY LIVE, but then that man trusts in his righteousness (i.e. OSAS; see Jer 7:3-11) and does evil, he will not be allowed into Heaven just bc he at one time professed faith and was made righteous
That sounds convincing to me
So, for me, this says it pretty plainly. I don't know how much more direct it can get: "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17) So, only Christians are God's temple. So if a Christian destroys God's temple (themself), God will destroy them. Obviously, they won't be making it into heaven.
I’m actually not sure. Some people’s mental problems physically prevent them from experiencing happiness. But if they don’t have a mental problem the act shows a lack of transformation. what verses you got?
Oh, well yes suicide would not be repeatable 🙃
Well except suicide 😅 And btw, do you believe that a Christian who commits suicide will go to hell? I do, and I have down-right proof of it in the Word.
I meant a repeated sin, all sins are repeatable
@Roger if a Christian does not repent of a repeatable sin, at the very least I think they should question whether they believed at all. Because when we are transformed at the moment of salvation, our lives should reflect this transformation or else their is no evidence of a transforming faith. It is possible they have fallen away from their relationship with God, though they are still his child, in which Christ would intercede for them but they would not have a healthy father/son relationship with the father: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15 - the carnal Christian might be saved, but they’ll be saved barely
@Vera, I’m not one hundred percent sure what your point is. I haven’t made any argument that works of righteousness save a person. We are saved by grace and not by works. I don’t trust in my previous righteousness to intercede for me when I sin, I trust Christ to intercede as said in Hebrews 7:25. My righteousness has nothing to do with justifying me, but Christ’s sacrifice has justified me through His righteousness. “More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,” Philippians 3:8-9
Ez 33:12-13: “Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. THE RIGHTEOUS MAN, IF HE SINS, WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO LIVE BECAUSE OF HIS FORMER RIGHTEOUSNESS.’ IF I TELL THE RIGHTEOUS MAN THAT HE WILL SURELY LIVE, BUT THEN HE TRUSTS IN HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND DOES EVIL, NONE OF THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS HE HAS DONE WILL BE REMEMBERED; HE WILL DIE FOR THE EVIL HE HAS DONE."
I'd like to just add this one piece of food for thought into the mix, but I'm not gonna say much cuz I'm really short on time. I think these verses really bring everything together very concisely. And plz don't give the excuse that it's from the OT, bc isn't the second half of the verse still applicable? I'm sorry, but you can't pick and chose
But if a Christian continues in sin and doesn't repent at all, it is definitely possible for them to fall away and end up in hell. Do you agree with that?
In summary, when we sin against our Father, he is displeased with us and he may punish us temporally (Hebrews 12:6) - discipline doesn’t mean permanent punishment, it’s a punishment to show our error. When we sin, Christ intercedes so our salvation is not lost. Then we confess to restore our relationship with our Father whom we displeased, though at no point did we stop being his child.
Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” - we are saved by Christ intercession, and we are saved forever.
1 John 2:1-2 “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” - Notice Christ intercedes when we sin, he is the satisfaction of God’s wrath (the propitiation), our advocate when we sin
Here are a few more verses for when you get back: Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, - It says Jesus makes us blameless
For a full look at what I believe I recommend “The Grace Awakening,” by Charles R. Swindoll
Thank you! I will read your articles
My second argument is freedom and confidence in Christ. How can we be free in Christ if we are losing our salvation all the time? We would have to repent constantly lest we sin unintentionally and then not be saved.
See also that our hope in Him purifies us
“See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.” 1 John 3:1-3
John 1:12 - “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”
When you sin against your father, you don’t stop being his child. But you ask forgivenessask forgiveness to restore the relationship - not forgiveness to restore salvation
“For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.” Hebrews 7:26-27. the sacrificial system has repeated sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, while Christ only had to die once. repeated repentance for our salvation would be like offering repeated sacrifices, but confessing once Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9) is acknowledging one sacrifice for all our sins
The distinction I make is between our condition and our position. Positional we are God’s child, conditionally we may be in sin and displeasing our father.
The key term from all your verses is “fall away.” The debate is what does this term mean?
1. When a Christian sins, they should repent. They were still God’s child, though they displeased their father who give them a temporal punishment for their sin rather than an eternal punishment. Imagine a father who denies their child every time they screw up. 2. The Lord’s Prayer has a part for forgiveness because although we are permanently God’s child, we can still displease God and be disciplined temporally. 3. this question will take another post because I will have to use scripture
Jesus I know, but who are you?
It is good for you to reject this statement: If you sin against your father you are still your father’s child, but you still ask for forgiveness even though your position with him did not change.
You can’t know you are going to heaven, because at this moment you could unintentionally sin and suddenly die without having repented
How can you live free, if you are constantly becoming unsaved?
Surely you must repeat Wesley’s prayer on repeat every second of the day, lest you sin without realizing it and be unsaved for a moment. Is that eternal risk with taking? if not you surely must pray for forgiveness so often you can do nothing else with your life. Your sin is your focus lest you be unsaved
John Wesley’s plea is torture to my ears! OSAS would appreciate that prayer because it covers sins not remembered. The only difference is OSAS say this to cover all the sins. Perhaps I can sow one more seed of fear from your beliefs.
I love people who don’t listen
You have not answered my question. how do you remember all your sins?
I have read all of these before, I quote scripture all the time just like you 😉
it’s like I said, you sin so often, how do you keep track of them all? you must rarely be in a state of “being saved”
I love when you say, “Now whenever we sin, we need to repent right away, be if we die at any point with un-repented-of sin in our lives, then we will end up in hell. But when we sin, God gives us grace, in the form of time to repent.” You sin so often that you are rarely in a state of “being saved.” You must be careful not to die at the wrong time! And keep good notes of all your wrongs, lest you forget one and accidentally let it go unrepented.
Tell me, do you remember all your sins? I think you sin a lot more than you think you do! But I’m glad that though you were made alive, you still think you can die again. I like how the knew creatures think they become old again. Why would Paul ask, “should we keep on sinning so grace may increase?” if you had to work, than this would not be a concern. I’m glad you work for your faith to be sustained, just ignore Romans 10:9 because their is so much more you have to do to stay saved! I would also not recommend asking yourself whether loving God for his free gift is motivating enough to not sin in order to please the one who saved you. If you sin it pleases me, not God, doesn’t matter whether you lose your salvation or not
I really love the idea that if you fall away by sinning enough times then your not saved anymore. Most Christians are sinning constantly in thought, deed, and omission. So many sins they can’t come close keeping up to confess them all! Besides, I can’t have them thinking their sins past, present, and future have been paid for and forgiven once and for all, that would be a disaster you know. I just can’t let them be free like that. The more fear of falling away the harder the fall, you know. I can’t let them think being saved by grace through faith results in works naturally by their transformation into new creations! Christians should believe grace must be sustained by their works or they won’t be saved. The terror of falling away must be upon them. Then legalism has a room take root. And once they realize they can’t ever be perfect enough to sustain grace just as they were not perfect enough to earn grace, they’ll give up and leave the faith in despair.
Curious what y’all’s thoughts are: is it possible to live in a spirit of repentance so that if you sin, your spirit of repentance will make up for a lack of memory or a death before consciously repenting of the sin?
Yeah, if you would change your username from Anonymousey to something else, I would be able to see for sure if you really are the same person or not.
But that doesn't convince us at all. Why don't you change your name on the other account? It's very simple. If you're not the other Anonymousey, and you want us to know that without a doubt, why don't you prove it?
I did change my name at least the one I am using right now
No, I'm not confusing you with a different person. If you look back on the Bible Brigade to February 2 and 3, you'll see that you were debating with me about the Sabbath. I already told you on The Bible Brigade how I know you're the same person, and you never proved that you AREN'T by changing your username or pfp on the account you are using right now.
we did, when? I think you are confusing me with a different person!
I already debated with you about the Sabbath, and I do not wish to have another one about it
does anyone want to debate me?
I understand that it takes almost a year (over 200 days) to get all the effects of covid out of our systems. I am experiencing some hair loss and went to a doctor yesterday. She said she's getting all kinds of patients who are losing their hair because of covid. But she says that eventually it will start growing in again.
Yeah, my whole family got it back in June. But we all recovered, thank God 😊 For most of us, it wasn't that severe actually. The main thing was the loss of taste and smell, which also took the longest to recover from.
@Roger: Did you have covid as well?
However, there are still some groups that are relatively active (Agape Force, The Bible Brigade, and Memorize Gods Word)
Hey, Marilyn! Glad to hear that you've recovered fully! 😀 I'm doing well, too. (This group has been pretty dead for a while, tho 😂)
I'm good as well. My health is back to normal. I got covid in September and struggled with it for almost 2 months. Finally knocked it out. It's good to be feeling better. I can now emphathize with those who have emphesema, because that is what it felt like.
👋 hi! speaking for myself, I’m good! how about you?
Hi everybody! Just dropping in to say hello. How are things going with you all? 😃🤚❤
I kinda agree with both ME and and Vera 😅 One verse that comes to mind is in 1 Cor. 13, where Paul says that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." Ofc, Paul wasn't talking specifically about sin in that context, but I think it still applies. We're made completely perfect (including from sin), when we go to be with the Lord. Bc it also says in Rom. 6:7 that "anyone who has died has been freed from sin." I believe that applies in the literal sense of dying, and also when we spiritually die to sin. Just some thoughts...
Yeah, I don't personally don't know anyone like that either... but anyway, I don't claim to be an expert on that one 😅
I’m with ME on this one. I think it’s definitely something we should strive for but I don’t think it’s possible on this broken earth… And I personally have never heard of anyone who just stopped spinning at some point 🤷♀️
You can call this coincidence, but I call it confirmation. I had just finished posting this comment, and beforehand, I had looked at the verse, "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.” (1Jn 5:18). But I hadn't posted it in my comment. However, right afterward, I started reviewing my verses, and one of the first five or six verses was 1 Jn 5:18.
Well, three things I do know for sure, 1: We need to aim for perfection (2 Corinthians 13:11) 2: "If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.” (James 3:2) And 3: Paul said himself that even he had not become perfect yet (Phil 3:12) So, whether we attain perfection in this present life or in the life to come, we must, through the help of the Holy Spirit, aim for perfection. Jesus even told several different people during His earthly ministry that they needed to stop sinning (Jn 5:14, 8:11)
M_E
Wednesday, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:03 AM
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I think it's something that we strive for in this world but we don't perfectly attain til we see Jesus face to face and are perfected in His image.
Well, l let's just say, I personally haven't attained perfection yet 😅... However, I DO believe that it must be possible, because, first of all, with God, all things are possible. Two, Jesus said, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) And, 1 Peter 1:16 says, "Be holy, for I am holy." So God would not command us to do something that we cannot do. What is your take on it?
Is it possible to live out the rest of your life perfectly at some point?
😂 Charis, do you have any other topics? It seems like no one else is too interested in debating (again) on this one 😅
...the silence on this group these days is deafening 😂
If they are truly saved, it will be shown by what they do. Repentance--turning away (from sin)--is a key to being born again
They Bible says that no idolater will inherit the kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:10
If they are not walking in obedience to the Lord, if they are committing idolatry, and if they are trying to get to the Father thru other ways than just Jesus, they cannot be a true believer
But what makes them not saved?
I figured we had but I couldn’t remember what exactly was said
😅...we've actually already done this one before...whoops 😬😂 But, in essence, no, they aren't true Christians.
Are catholics saved??
(another topic)
Yeah, that’s my main problem with them. They don’t seem very concerned about the quality of the disciples when I think that should be the main focus
Also, I agree that focusing too much on the number is not the best, either. The main focus should be on the quality of disciples they're producing.
And one can also not be a true disciple unless they are being fed the Word. That is why the core of our school is to get ppl into Life Transformation Groups (LTGs), where, among other things, they read lots of the Bible. I don't think it is wrong for them to get answers from the one discipling them. However, I do think it is a really good idea for them to try to get things from the Word themselves, as well.
Well, one cannot be a disciple unless he is saved, so that I don't agree with...Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching you are really my disciples..." So, you must be born again and holding to His teachings in order to be a true disciple, otherwise the discipleship won't do you one lick of good.
From what I've heard they believe that you can be a disciple without being a believer... They seem to focus on making disciples and kinda leaving it to them to maybe become saved later on (one of the approaches at least). And that missionaries aren't supposed to teach people the word or give them answers?? Also, the movement itself seems to focus too much on the number of people they disciple which I don't like.
Yes, make disciples that will multiply. What is your take on it?
so, y’all agree with their technique?
I hadn't exactly heard of that acronym before, but I just now looked it up, and Roger and I are actually very well acquainted with the concept. 😅 That's what our family went to Hungary to accomplish, that's what we are now aiming for with our DTS, and that's what Jesus commanded us to do in the Great Commission 😄
Well, I believe that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. So, if anyone is ready to accept God as the Lord and Savior of his life, God will more than gladly accept him 😊 However, if God calls someone, but they don't chose to follow, they won't be chosen by God. God gives the invitation--it's our job to accept it.
The people that aren’t chosen can still choose God
What I mean is God chooses few people but that doesn’t mean that the people that aren’t chosen can’t choose God if that makes sense
Yes, I believe so. As it says in 2 Pet. 1:10, "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF you do these things, YOU WILL NEVER FALL," So, it says that IF we do the things that it said in the context we must do, that will ensure that we will never fall, and will make our calling and election sure.
So, the elect are just people who become a Christian? And they can still leave the faith?
"Few are chosen" as in, some ppl reject the calling, and thus are not chosen. And some ppl can accept that calling, but they don't follow thru with their commitment (Matthew 21:28–32). Also see Matthew 22:1-14 (the parable explains it all)
Everyone is called to believe in God, few are chosen. Doesn’t this mean that few people choose to?
*scratches head* Sethers, I'm not really sure what your point is... do you mind wording that a bit differently, please? 😅 Are you saying that even if we aren't chosen by God, but we choose God, that we'll still go to heaven? I'm sorry, I'm just a bit confused here 😂
But about this, so the Bible says “many are called few are chosen”, so let’s think about this, lots of people are going to be called, few are going to be chosen by God, this does not mean that we cannot choose God, it simply means that God won’t choose a lot of people, God will choose few people but we can choose God
I’ve been busy soo haven’t had the time to say anything
sorry, this isn't a very detailed write-up, cause I need to do some things before work...
Well, as 2 Pt 1:10 says, we must "make our calling and election sure", and "many are called, but few are chosen". (Matt 22:14) So, I'm not sure how many of the ppl who don't make it to heaven are elect...
ok, this wasn’t where I was originally going but here goes… So, the people who are elected are the ones who go to heaven, yes? Do they all go to heaven?
okay, since no one else is saying anything, just let me remember where exactly I was going with this…..
And we cannot forget that God has given man a free will. He did not create a bunch of robots that do exactly what has been programmed into them. It is certainly possible to drift away and shrink back. This means we must put our faith in Jesus, we must MAKE OUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE (2 Pet. 1:10), we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil 2:12)
So, I believe that election is based on God’s gracious choice. (Rom 11:5-7) The elect were known beforehand and destined beforehand, which is called predestination. (Rom 8:29-30) God’s purpose in choosing the elect was that they go and bear fruit that would remain, that the Father would give them whatever they ask in Jesus’ Name, that the elect be conformed to the image of His Son, and to make his glory known upon the vessels of His mercy. Obviously, God does not want any to perish, Jesus is the Savior to all who believe, and the gospel is for everyone who will listen. But while many are called, few are chosen. (Mat 22:14)
Ok, I'll restate what I had said a while back 😉
Well, if we could give brief statements about our beliefs on that I can introduce another topic
Hmm...a while back, I give a brief statement about my belief on that...um, it kinda turned into a political discussion somehow 🤔😂
idk if we’ve discussed that yet
Do we believe in predestination here?
...soooo, Agent, what's the next topic? 😂
I explained everything in my post earlier
No, how can false teachers be saved?
The chapter here is talking about false prophets
2 Peter 2:20 (FSB): last state has become worse for them Jesus has offered these people the opportunity to escape sin—which came at the price of His own life—and they have chosen to go back to sin and indulge in it, and then encouraged others to do the same. Having known the truth and denied it, their current spiritual situation is worse than before: Evil has gained a stronger footing in their lives because it is now using them to lead others astray (compare Luke 11:24–26). In addition, these false teachers will experience an especially harsh judgment from God; they will not only bear their own punishment, but also the punishment for those they led astray (Luke 17:1–2). The full consequences of their sin will visit them. In full knowledge of the truth, the false teachers chose this path instead of the freedom of Christ.
Those verses say nothing about losing your salvation😂🤦🏻♂️
Yes, exactly! When I read the Bible, I don't see it any other way. I would not want to tell someone that he can get into heaven with sin in his life
Show me verses to back up your opinions
😆 Sounds just like the way Micah is tickled pink whenever I say "I know" something, and then I'm wrong 😂
“Yah, I have a bad memory.” Made my day 😂 not entirely sure why
I just don’t think that if you believe in Jesus and sin, you will not live eternally. you need to repent, but if a sin leads to your death and you believed in Jesus and repented of your sin, you will be eternally dead?
Yah, I have a bad memory.
Micah, yes, we already had a debate about that, and you agreed with me, remember?
so you believe you can lose your salvation?
idrk, it’s a complicated question ig….. I mean, you would assume God would give you time to repent, but also, people have probably gone to hell because they didn’t repent of a sin and that’s the most frustrating part of this whole situation. I’m not entirely sure what I think about this..
That’s definitely not biblical
That’s part of your guys losing your salvation thing🤦🏻♂️so from what I’m hearing you guys say, if you sinned and right as you were about to confess it you fall dead, you go to hell
I personally can’t believe that God, a God of mercy, love, and grace would actually let someone who has trusted in Him to go to hell because they didn’t have a chance to repent one sin.
"'In your anger do not sin': Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold." (Eph 4:26-27) Why is there this verse in the Bible?
Well, what do you think happens?
So wait, if you live your life believing in Jesus, repenting when you do wrong, and make a mistake that costs you your life, you are condemned? That doesn’t seem right.
Charis, I'm curious, what is your take on all this? 😊
I agree with Roger. That is why, with the Lord's help, we must live each day as if it were our last, which I'll be the first to admit, I don't do. Jesus did tell us, "Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." (Mat 5:48) So the best remedy is to avoid the sin in the first place. But when we sin, it's always a good practice to repent right away and not leave something to get swept under the rug and forgotten about.
So, say you were driving and getting frustrated and angry with the person in front of you and then another car hit you and you were dead. You wouldn’t go to heaven?
do you also believe that if a Christian sinned and shortly after died before they repented, would go to hell?
No. Bc suicide is murder. Nobody (not even a Christian) can get into heaven if they murder someone (including their own self) unless they repent, which you can't if you commit suicide. So no. And it is EXTREMELY dangerous for pastors and others to say that, "Yes, you will still go to heaven, but God just won't be happy with you for a while." 😑 That gives one a way out, and it has led to many Christians doing just that--taking their own lives--when God alone is the giver and taker of life.
anyways, if a Christian committed suicide would they go to heaven?
ok, here’s one which was not one of the ones that I was kinda thinking of but couldn’t remember 😏
😂😂 Ok, let me know when you do remember them
ooh, I have a lot. Just… let me remember them…
I don't know if there are any topics left to debate about 😆
Wow, you sound bored 😂 Micah, we're having a new activity over on The Bible Brigade, if you want to go join 😉
Speaking of Micah, he's been sooo inactive lately 😒
Um, no it wasn't Micah, I know that 😂 Micah would have said it on his own account and his writing would have been very....different 😅
Maybe Micah, although I don’t think he would talk about liberals like that
Ok, wow, I really thought that was you 😅 But, yeah, whoever it was, all they did with their account was to join Final Events...so that's why I thought you had created an alt account. 😂 Plus, the way they talked/wrote really seemed like the way you do it.
We are not the same account, just very similar beliefs.
Hahaha no. I had no idea whose account that is, but I agree, tho.
So, Bubble, alt account on Final Events SDA, huh? 😏
🤔 Did you read my other comments?
Yes, but this verse says explicitly that the plagues are death, mourning, and famine, not the great tribulation. Not only that, but it had just shown that this is after the great tribulation, not before. Revelation 18:1 (KJV 1900): "And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory." Notice how it says AND AFTER THESE THINGS. this verse explicitly shows that this happens AFTER the Great Tribulation, not before
Also, it just so happens that in 2 Cor 6:17, there is a similar call to: “Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” That doesn't mean leave the earth; it simply means you are to make a separation from the world.
He's not telling ppl to come out of the earth. I think what that verse is saying is that we as Christians are supposed to come out of Babylon, as in be separate from her. We are not to share in her sins or else we will receive her plagues. (Notice at this point in the chapter, he implies there are still plagues coming.) You could also take it literally and say, "leave America; go to another country". But I don't at all see the rapture happening in that passage. And I still absolutely believe that those ppl were
in heaven, bc the sea of glass is in heaven. And they are holding harps that God has given them in Heaven. I really don't see anything completely symbolic in this chapter. It all seems literal to me.
So how can the Bible be saying right after the Great Tribulation for the people of God to come out of earth if they are already in heaven?
Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! 3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
ok so I did some more digging and it never even says that they are in heaven. The people of God stand on a sea of glass, but this entire chapter is representative. The sea of glass represents their purity. Mingled with fire, the justice of God. Now we look at Rev 18 and see that RIGHT AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION the angel goes and calls his people from the earth.
😂 Ok, everybody, we're taking a ten year recess for Micah to read Revelation 15 and 16. 🤣 Um, yah, Micah, plz don't take that long 😅
9 years and 364 days later……
And maybe try to do it sometime before ten years is up 😂😜
Well, lemme know when you've done that, and we'll continue the discussion 😉
It is, but I need to put some time away to read it.
I can't imagine not having read Revelation for a while; it's such an interesting book! 😄
I second your first statement 😅 😉 Maybe tonight? Chapters 15 and 16 aren't that long
I really need to reread this for context. It’s also always good to quiz someone on the Bible. We almost always miss or relearn something we haven’t seen or remembered before.
"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath ON THE EARTH.” (Rev 16:1)
For me?? How is it for me? You're the one that doesn't know the facts 😂😂
But this is a good quiz for you 😂
🤔 Could I interest you in reading Revelation 15 and 16 before we continue with this discussion, please? 😂
But what I mean is that how do we know he is talking about the great tribulation and not hell?
Sorry I haven’t read revaluation in a while 😂
We know it's not after the GT because John speaks of it as happening right before the bowls of wrath are poured out.
How do you know Jesus hadn’t already returned?
Soo... do you get what I'm saying? 😉
🤔I don't get your second statement, but with your first comment: yes, that's what I'm trying to say. If they were there bc Jesus had already returned, and they'd been resurrected, then that shows the he returns BEFORE the bowls of wrath are poured out. 😉 Which is what I'm trying to show you.
Then it is POINTLESS to argue. In both situations, the people would be their.
So why can’t he be having a vision of after Jesus comes back?
So, since we've established the fact that they were IN HEAVEN, can you now plz explain how that could be? 😉
Pst, uh, Bubble, don't make me have to write another poem, ya know? 😜😂
are y’all having a debate on here?
Btw, @all, plz check Theological Debates Overflow. 😉 A new girl has joined and wants to have a small debate over there 😁
And in the NIV, it says they were beside it 😉
No, here's the verse. They stood ON it. 😉 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand ON the sea of glass, having the harps of God."
No, it says that he saw them AND a sea of glass, not beside it.
Well, he saw them beside the sea of glass, which is in heaven 😉
I'm not saying that John was not in heaven when he saw this, but I am saying that when John says that he see Saint that does not mean that they are in heaven. He can be seeing a vision of the saints or just looking down of them. Just because God sees us does not mean we are ik heaven.
Also, that thing you brought up about the words "as if it were" simply meaning "what looked like." He's saying that he's trying to best describe what he saw--another indication that he was in heaven, bc the things in heaven are too wonderful to describe in human terms.
Second, of course the saints were in heaven! You think that he saw a sea of glass mixed with fire on the earth? No...It even says in Revelation 4 that IN HEAVEN there is SEA OF GLASS. Besides, the whole chapter is about what he's seeing IN HEAVEN. It even says in verse 1: "I saw IN HEAVEN another great and marvelous sign...(vs 2) And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and..." So, it's clearly something that is literally in heaven.
First, who said you can't hold God's wrath in a bowl? I don't believe that it is JUST symbolic. I believe that in the spiritual realm, these kind of things can be actually literal. We don't see them in the natural realm, and they may seem weird to us (in this case you 😂) who are in the physical realm, but they are indeed happening in the spiritual. That is whole chapter is actually very literal.
Next, let's look at the description of them. "and I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." Now it says that he sees them, but not that they are in heaven. This can easily just be a vision of the saints that he is having. Not only that, but the the beginning of this verse it says "as if it were". Not that it is.
Ok so first, keep in mind that literally the entire chapter is symbolic. let me give you an example "Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever." You cannot hold the wrath of God in a bowl. Emotions do not have mass.
😢 Oh, Bubble, will you ever respond? Will you ever reply? Why do you remain silent as the days go by and by? If you are confuzzled, please tell us the trouble. Just give us an answer, our dear little Bubble.😪 (Poem written by myself just now 🤣)
I was just confused since I am way behind on this discussion that has been going on since I left for camp 😂 🤦♂️
Ok. So now, I have another question for you. This verse comes from Revelation 15, and it's right BEFORE the bowls of wrath are about to be poured out on the earth. This is verse 2: "And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God" Now, plz tell me: what are the saints doing IN HEAVEN at this point in time?? This means either one of two things, both of which disprove one of your beliefs. Interpretation 1: They have already been resurrected/raptured, which means that the rapture/resurrection happens BEFORE the bowls of wrath, as we've been saying. Or 2: This absolutely PROVES that the souls of the righteous go to heaven right after death. Now, which one will it be? 😏
I think so, but I can't be completely sure.
Ehh...could be 🤷♂️...but, just curious: do you believe that America is Mystery Babylon? I do...
Yes, but what does the little horn represent. I think it represents the Papacy. The main reasons being that the Papacy took out three provinces when they rebelled against the papacy as it says in Daniel, as well. Daniel 7:8 (KJV 1900): I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots
"The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven." (Rev 13:5-6) That matches up with the little horn in Daniel.
Bubble, the little horn represents the antichrist.
Micah, what's the "huh?" for? 😂
Daniel 7:8 (KJV 1900): I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Okay so here's that thing: daniel has the same vision, but with animals(Dan. 8). However, a little horn comes up when the beast(Rome) is there. What is that?
Yeah, yeah, I know: you're busy... but don't forget to come back to this at SOME point 😜
Uhh, Bubble? You there? 😅
And of course...I agree 🙃
Here's what we believe it represents, and I don't think I've ever really heard a different interpretation. It represents the different kingdoms of the world down thru history, and up to the present and future kingdoms, as Daniel says they are. The gold head is the Babylonian empire; the chest and arms of silver represents the Median/Persian kingdom; the belly and thighs of bronze represents the kingdom of Greece; the legs of iron is the Roman empire; and the feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay is the current "kingdom". Then the rock that smashes the statue is God's kingdom. Does that make sense? And what do you believe it is?
Also on another subject do you know what the statue in daniel 2 represents?(I'm not sure if this is an only Adventist thing so I'm wondering if you guys have a different interpretation of it than me)
I guess I can agree to the last part. (:
Amen, brother! Preach it! 😄
Well, it doesn't explicitly say it. However, if you assumed that the seventh trumpet was in chronological order with the surrounding events, that would indicate it was before the great tribulation. But, here is the bottom line: None of us knows EXACTLY when, and in what order the end time events will occur. As time progresses, God will make it clearer to believers where we are at in the end times. Our part is simply to BE READY for whatever happens, whether it's the Lord's coming, hardships, persecutions, martyrdom, or whatever else. Bc if someone expects things to happen a certain way, and it doesn't and they're not ready, it could result in them missing the rapture, or them falling away. That's why we simply have to trust God and stay alert and ready for anything to happen. 😉
Where in revalation does it say that the seventh trumpet is before the great tribulation?
Ah, but in 1 Cor 15, it clearly says that the resurrection happens at the LAST (seventh) TRUMPET, which, according to Rev, seems to happen before the GT begins. "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Cor. 15:52)
But you can easily see these passages being the Ressurection after the great tribulation. No where in the Bible does it say that the Dead are Ressurrected before the great tribulation. However, read through Rev. 19-20, and see what is happening. There is the end of the great tribulation at the beginning of chapter 19, then satan is bound up, and after the thousand years Satan tries to get the evil remaining people to attack the new Jerusalem. They fail, and are put on judgement and are thrown into the lake of fire.
That's how we understand it
The first instance is the rapture, mentioned in 1 Thess. 4, among other places: "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (vs 17) Now, notice how it says we will meet the Lord IN THE AIR, and that in Mat. 24, it says that he will SEND HIS ANGELS to gather his elect. So, in other words, at the rapture, Jesus does not actually come down onto the surface of the earth. He stays in the sky and sends his angels down to bring us up to meet him. That's the rapture. What we refer to as the second coming (meaning the second coming after the rapture) is when Jesus returns to earth at the END of the GT, and he then sets up his kingdom on earth and reigns for a thousand years (the millennium). At that time, he will actually set his feet down on the earth. It speaks of this in Zech. 14: "And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You...And the Lord shall be King over all the earth." (vs 4a, 5b, 9a) See? That is clearly talking about when Jesus returns after the GT to set up his millennial kingdom, and it is different from what is in 1 Thess. 4, which is about the rapture.
Hmm...I know you'd think this to be weird, but we actually don't refer to the rapture as the second coming. Let me explain. First of all, the Bible never uses the word "rapture" OR "second coming"; however, that obviously does not mean that they aren't true. Now, here is one thing that kind of proves the rapture, in a way. When the Bible talks about Jesus returning to earth, there are at least two different instances where that happens.
Been busy. But the Bible is talking about God's SECOND COMING, Not the rapture.
Again...silence...😂 Or is this discussion already over? @Charis, just curious: what do you believe about the rapture?
But, if, as we are saying, the rapture happens BEFORE the GT, then you wouldn't know 😉 Besides, Jesus said we would know the season (as in, when we see the things that he spoke about in Matt 24 happening, we should look up, for our redemption draws nigh).
I actually don't know. I personally don't think that The Bible ever says. One reason being that the Bible says that no man shall know the day or the hour that the Lord comes, so if we knew when the great tribulation ends, then we would know when God would come.
So, Bubble, how long do YOU think the Great Tribulation is?
Ok, so, regardless, I think we just went on a rabbit trail there, bc I don't think that was really the point of this whole convo 😅 We were kinda talking about how long we think the GT will be for
I do think that there are a lot of places in Mark 13 where Jesus does talk about the end of time, but I do not, however, think that the verses that I am talking about are referring to the end.
Essentially, he was saying that "that point would be the BEGINNING of the end"
Yes, Vera. And, BM, when it says that "the end shall not yet come" it's saying that AT THE TIME when there are wars and rumors of wars, THE end is not yet there. He said "These are the beginning of birth pains", meaning the end is close at that point, but not exactly right there yet. That's what he meant by that statement.
As I said earlier, part of the passages (Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) have double fulfillments. If you read the whole of those chapters, you can clearly see that Jesus is speaking of the events leading up to the end. It even speaks of the rapture in those passages. You can believe it or not, but I'm thoroughly convinced of all this.
Now how did the Christians know to flee? Because Jesus said "when you see the Abomination of Desolation standing where it ought not. The Roman's left without reason, and that when they knew to flee.
Let's have a little history review. Romans surrounded Jerusalem and seiged it for a while. Then they leave the city because something happens. Jerusalem rejoices because they got Rome away from their city. The Christians, however, flee the city because of Jesus' warning. The Roman's come back, seige the city, take it, and, after a bloody battle, burn down the Sanctuary. The Temples gold melts in between the cracks of the greats stones of the building, so the Roman's have to take apart every stone to get the gold in between it. Leaving not one stone upon another.
here is an overview of what Mark 13 says. Mark 13:1–2 (KJV 1900): "And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Then Peter asks "when shall these things be?" and Jesus gives all of what will happen when Jerusalem is destroyed and says this "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet." BUT THE END SHALL NOT BE YET. This is obviously not talking about the end times. This is, however talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.
Also, keep in mind that when it says "the temple", it doesn't have to mean that the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt. It could mean that, but then again, realize that it could be referring to something else, such as the church, or even our bodies. (We are the temple of the Holy Spirit) Just saying that we don't know exactly what's going to happen, but, like Vera said, I believe that those passages have fulfillment in both the past and the future.
Yes, Vera! I back that up.
Yes! But also realize that prophecies can have double fulfillment. And we never exactly said that the abomination that causes desolation is the antichrist, cause no one really knows what it will be, yet. All Roger was saying was that that passage in Dan 9:27 was NOT talking about Jesus, as you had supposed. You were saying that the one who made the seven year covenant was Jesus, and Roger was showing you that it's clearly not speaking of Jesus, but the antichrist.
Ok so first, you cannot prove that when he says abomination desolation he is referring to the Antichrist. We see that there are multiple abominations. "on the wing of abominations". Not only that, but in verse 26 it says that the city and sanctuary will both be destroyed. Now when was the city and sanctuary destroyed? it was after Jesus left earth. In Mark 13 Jesus says that Jerusalem will be destroyed. Peter then asks when this will happen, and Jesus talks about the end of the world. then he says (Mark 13:14) "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" Forty years after Jesus went to heaven Jerusalem was surrounded and attacked. The city was destroyed, but for a few weeks the army left to go somewhere. Then only the Christians who knew this verse fled to the mountains. The romans came back, and destroyed both the city and sanctuary. The sanctuary has never been rebuilt again.
... silence is always a good sign that I proved my point 😏
Wha??! 🤔🤨 Ahhh, BM? No. That passage is CLEARLY speaking about the end times!! You didn't even give the whole verse! Here, lemme quote it: "He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” That is CLEARLY speaking of the antichrist. Jesus would not set up an abomination that causes desolation. Jesus even said in Mat 24 and Mark 13 that in the end times, the antichrist would set up AN ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. Dan 9:27 is OBVIOUSLY referring to that.
Daniel 9:27 (NKJV): "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." Now when was sacrifice and offering ended? was it not when Jesus was killed as the final sacrifice to sin?
Let me explain. God makes a covenant to Israel, but not in end times. this is speaking of the covenant God made to Israel before the messiah, but when Messiah was killed, the covenant was broken.
isn't that the seventy weeks prophecy? that's predicting the messiah, not the end of the world...
Well, yeah, it's that verse (Dan 9:27). That's why, I'm not really sure exactly how ppl come to the conclusion that that is speaking of the GT, unless it has to do with the fact that the antichrist is in power already; and maybe the covenant has something to do with that...I don't know. What are your thoughts?
also there's a different one that says they made a covenant with Isreal. but again I'm not sure where
...any thoughts on that, BM1? 🤔😂
Bible Memorizer I, Roger just said down below, that it speaks of the seven in Dan 9:27. Now, many ppl can interpret this many different ways, and I'll be honest, I don't have all the eschatology down pat (neither does my dad, tho he's been studying this for years). But I think I can say with some degree of certainty that the GT will be for at least 3½ years.
Cya, I’m going to camp. B back in a week.
Like...where did you get the seven years from?
and through Rev. it talks about it somewhere, but I don't know the exact place
Ok? 😅 Not exactly sure which part you're talking about, but I'll go ahead and give something for all the key points....1: Jesus said that the time of Great Tribulation had been cut short--(Mat 24:22, Mark 13:20). 2: all over Revelation (and some in Daniel) it keeps on repeating three and a half years in different forms--(Dan 7:25; 12:7; Rev 11:2,3; 12:6,14) It also says that in the middle of the seven, he will break the covenant. From there, they proceed to set up the abomination of desolation--(Dan 9:27)
I'm just not sure where you have got this information...
uhhh. What? can I get a few bible verses to back this up?
ok yeah that's what I thought.
Well, yeah, that's where I think ppl get the seven year Tribulation thing from. So, whether that period constitutes the Great Tribulation is kind of unknown. It also says that in the middle of the seven, he will break the covenant. So, since the middle would be 3 1/2 years, then perhaps that is the beginning of the GT. Bc from there, they proceed to set up the abomination of desolation.
but isn't the antichrist going to sign a 7 year peace treaty with Israel?
Ok, so I'm not an big expert on eschatology, but it's debatable as to whether the Great Tribulation is seven years or three and a half years long. Jesus said that the time of Great Tribulation had been cut short, so that's one thing to keep in mind. Also, all over Revelation in keeps on repeating three and a half years in different forms. So, I kind of tend to think that the Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long. Again, I'm not an expert on this, so I don't know exactly for sure. Only God does.
firstly, where did you get the seven years from?
I'm not sure what yiu mean by Rapture, but i do think that there will not be a Rapture where the good are taken away to heaven and then there are seven years where the bad will have a chance to change.
I believe in a pre Trib rapture, that happens around the seventh trumpet. 😉
So, start a debate on this again but I’m curious what people believe about the rapture?(Like, pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib)
Hey, Aaron, I saw the whole gig on Final Events SDA...😬 you might not want to give away the name of this group out there in the "wild" 😂 It might attract unwanted company over here, ya know? 😉
hey Sethers said something
Btw, that last part after the second emoji was the conclusion from the article I sent 😉
BM1, you're not making one bit of sense 😅 And besides, we're not getting anywhere, so it might be best if we close this debate out. Bottom line? JESUS IS NOT THE ARCHANGEL! 😂 There is no biblical evidence to equate Michael the archangel with Jesus. To the contrary, Jesus and Michael are two different personages. Michael is the highest of the angels - an order of created beings while Jesus is the uncreated Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son. The end. 😊
I am not saying Jesus became an angel. I am saying, however that Jesus affiliated, and still affiliates, with angel just like he did with humans. We can even see that God visited humans like angels before they sinned, but when they did sin he was not able to visit them anymore on the personal level.
it is tho, r angels sinners? Was becoming an angel their means of salvation?
yeah. he is not an angel. I never said he was. But I did say that he has a role with angels because he affiliates with angels. It is no different then how he affiliated with men.
Jesus is God, not an angel
Roger, sorry I have not been here in a while. been busy. but here is what I am going to say. You keep on giving me verses about how Jesus us not like any other angel and cannot be compared to them, and so therefore is not an Archangel. However just because Jesus is not to be compared with any other being does not mean that he has a role and position with angels. Why? because he lives and talks with them. Just like you communicate with me. Just because Jesus has a role with the angels as an Archangel does not mean that he is not set apart. Jesus has a role as a carpenter with man, and that does not mean we are comparing him with other carpenters, that is just his role with man. it is no different with angels, as well. Why would it be?
Now, I really want to emphasize that last part. It comes from Psalm 89:6 and it says, "For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings?" This verse absolutely PROVES that Jesus is not the archangel. Just like it said in the article I sent you: "Michael, the one who is closest in proximity to the Lord at the top of the angelic creation, bears testimony to the great gap between the Creator and the created. His name means, "who is like God?" The answer, of course, is no one. The closer one gets to God, the more they realize their own nothingness and His greatness. Neither Michael, nor any of the angels, is like God." Boom. That's it. Case closed. 😂
@BM I, number one: Jesus didn't have that name only after He died. That was the name that He was given before He was even conceived. 2: (Quote from my dad's article about Jesus' humiliation and exaltation) "The Son of Man was exalted above the dignity of all heavenly creatures, as Christ in His deity and humanity went up to take His rightful place. There He surpasses the ranks of angels and archangels, and NONE OF THE HEAVENLY BEINGS IS HIS EQUAL."
If you don't mind, I'm going to repost what I wrote earlier about the debate, bc I want BM1 to respond 😉
Btw, I got up EXTRA early today, as in, 9:45 AM!! 😫 Lately, I've been getting up when the clock has two digits for the hour, so now you why 9:45 is early for me 🤣
Yeah, and besides, no one else really liked them either--right guys?? 😏
And, Micah, PART of the reason that he keeps on wanting to change them (besides not liking them) is that, when you put the pic on, it turns out all fuzzy and iffy on the computer, and he doesn't like that 😂
cuz he don't like them. 😂
So why ru changing all MY GROUPS pics Roger?
IKR?? Good to know I’m not the only one who notices that 😂
Agent! 😩 It was an honest mistake. I'm usually good at grammar and spelling!! 😒 Besides, Micah does that kind of stuff all the time. He always says sense instead of since...😏
?? Not sure if I'm following 😅
Hmph, don’t take a picture from someone who mixes up your and you’re…. Smhh
Me, 2! Pweeze, Micah! Have pity on us common folk, and allow us this one joy 😢
I like this one better than the one Micah picked
😜😜I beseech thee, Micah, that thou woulds't accept this picture from mine files 🙏🙏🙏
😥 But, Micah! You're pics are just plain weird! 😩😂
Now, I really want to emphasize that last part. It comes from Psalm 89:6 and it says, "For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings?" This verse absolutely PROVES that Jesus is not the archangel. Just like it said in the article I sent you: "Michael, the one who is closest in proximity to the Lord at the top of the angelic creation, bears testimony to the great gap between the Creator and the created. His name means, "who is like God?" The answer, of course, is no one. The closer one gets to God, the more they realize their own nothingness and His greatness. Neither Michael, nor any of the angels, is like God." Boom. That's it. Case closed. 😂
Uh, yeah exactly, BM II. @BM I, number one: Jesus didn't have that name only after He died. That was the name that He was given before He was even conceived. 2: (Quote from my dad's article about Jesus' humiliation and exaltation) "The Son of Man was exalted above the dignity of all heavenly creatures, as Christ in His deity and humanity went up to take His rightful place. There He surpasses the ranks of angels and archangels, and NONE OF THE HEAVENLY BEINGS IS HIS EQUAL."
umm, his name was Jesus before he died.😜
yeah, but Michael got the name of Jesus BECAUSE he died for us and THEN had the name Jesus. And the other things like saying that Jesus was exalted to the highest place does not mean that he is not an archangel. Just because Jesus is at the right hand if God does not mean that he wasnt a carpenter on earth.
And, Micah, you know why it's repetitive? 😏 It's bc BM over here keeps avoiding this passage I'm giving him, so I've been trying to keep on bringing it up again...😏
This is kinda repetitive. We should end....
The Bible says that, after Jesus had humbled himself, becoming like a MAN (NOT AN ANGEL), "God exalted him to the HIGHEST PLACE" (not the place of the archangel, bc that is NOT the highest place) "and gave him THE NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME, that at the name of JESUS" (NOT at the name of Michael) "every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD," (not the archangel) "to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-11)
Ok, found it 😂 Now, back to the debate, BM. 😉 I was giving you Philippians 2, remember? 😏
Also I just created a new group. First three people to find it become admins. If you find it no cheating and telling your freinds or siblings. good luck.
The person. In this group. 😂
You 😂 What do you mean by your comment about "ME" being awesome 🤔
Waaait a minute...I hadn't seen that b4 I had posted...what do you mean?? 🤔😂
Yeah, Micah. 😉 @BM, did you even see what I said from Phil 2??
Shout out to ME btw! Ur SO awesome.
But my mom wouldn’t “dare not” to do something unless she consulted my dad. She would make a decision by herself. Also sense they are one (I’m going to ignore the three part 😂 😉) he can do what he wants, sense all of them agree.
Roger, that is circular reasoning. I already showed that the Bible never says that Michael is an angel.
Ok, first, Michael would dare not to do anything by himself. He is one of three, and He is not going to work and say things without God on his side.
Exactly 😉 and, BM, just make sure you still respond to what I said below ⬇️⬇️
If Michael “dared not to” then he did. But if you think about the fact that he DARED not to, Jesus wouldn’t “dare not” do anything! He is God! He can’t make mistakes or be punished! What would he be afraid of!
No, Michael is one of the angels, but NOT JESUS. So that proves it right there. Since it says that Michael is an angel and Jesus is not, then Jesus cannot be Michael. Besides, as I said, the Bible says that, after Jesus had humbled himself, becoming like a MAN (NOT AN ANGEL), "God exalted him to the HIGHEST PLACE" (not the place of the archangel, bc that is NOT the highest place) "and gave him THE NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME, that at the name of JESUS" (NOT at the name of Michael) "every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD," (not the archangel) "to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-11)
What I'm saying is that Jesus had a role with angels just like he was a carpenter with men. The reason why Jesus is not an angel is because they already live sinless lives, so Jesus did not have to die for them.
the Bible never says that Jesus has roles with Angel's, but it does say that Michael does. And his role was archangel.
When Michael said in Jude that the lord rebuked satan. Therefore the writer says that is cannot be Jesus because he is not able to rebuke the devil by himself. However, the Bible says Michael could have, but he dared not to. Why? Because he will work together with God to rebuke satan, not just by himself. the writer shows a verse of Jesus telling the devil to leave him in Matthew 4:10-11. But again we see that Jesus says "for it is written" as if he has to depend on the Bible before he does anything. Why? because he works together with God and the bible, not independently.
It never says in the Bible that Jesus has roles with angels. You're just making that up. The Bible says that, after Jesus had humbled himself, becoming like a MAN (NOT AN ANGEL), "God exalted him to the HIGHEST PLACE" (not the place of the archangel, bc that is NOT the highest place) "and gave him THE NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME, that at the name of JESUS" (NOT at the name of Michael) "every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD," (not the archangel) "to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-11)
Ok so one of his first points is that he says that because Michael is one of the princes he cannot be Jesus because Jesus is the unique son of God. However, Michael can be one of the princes and still be the unique son of God. That is merely a role that Michael gets because he affiliates with angels. One example is that Jesus is a carpenter with man. Now does that make Him anymore less like God or not unique? No. That is his role with men. A prince is his role with angels.
Yeah, sure. Also, plz tell me what part you think is incorrect in that article, bc I thought it was excellent. He made some really good points that I don't see how you could refute.
I read it. Do you want me to give an answer the the questions he said in the article on the group wall?
@BM 1, I'm still waiting for your response about the article I sent 😉 (https://tinyurl.com/49ez8j56) Plz let me know when you've read it.
😂 But that was AFTER the fact
I mean.... I literally just told him to look at the group description.... so...
😂 You might've told him in your dream or something, cause I don't see any recent post where you said you updated it
I told him after. I had changed it but u see I didn’t delete your comment.
that is true there is nothing wrong, but when you update the description you should probably tell people.😏😉
Oh man 🤦♂️😂 I simply had done *smh* and then you added that to the "no, no" list. Then you acted like I had broken the rule. I didn't break your rule. Why can't I do all these things? 😂 There's nothin' wrong with shaking my head. 😅
Look at the group description
Yeah?....so? It's just *shaking my head*. What' so bad about that? 😂
Ummm, yeah? 🤔 Did I... do something wrong? 😳
Of course Jesus shows affection to the angels, but He isn't one of them. Alright, I have one last thing for you and then we should end. Plz read (and let me know when you've done so) this short article that really explains it well: https://tinyurl.com/49ez8j56
and I mean that I that Jesus affilates with angel because he affiliated with men, so why would there be a difference in affection to another species? If we go to heaven will Jesus only want to talk with us and never the angels?
*only on the definition of Archangel form the commentators.
I mean assume as in the Bible does not say that Jesus is the Archangel or that Jesus is not. Therefore I have to make an assumption on something that I cannot make a completely stable conclusion on. This, however, does not mean that I should stop believing that Jesus is not Michael. That conclusion is just as unstable. The Bible never says that Michael the Archangel is a legitimate angel, on the definition of Archangel from commentators.
Hold on, hold on. *smh* First, you said it yourself: you're "ASSUMING". You shouldn't just assume that Jesus is the archangel, especially when there is no Biblical evidence for it. Just bc Michael leads the angels against satan doesn't mean that he's Jesus. Jesus has assigned Michael the task of leading the fighting angels. Yes, Jesus is the ultimate leader of them all, but not the archangel. It's just like with David the king, and his commander Joab. Joab led the army in battle; so does that mean that he was king David, or that David was Joab? No. David was the king, and ultimate leader, but Joab was the leader of David's army. It's the same with Michael and Jesus. Jesus is the King, Michael is the archangel. Next, Jesus can absolutely NOT be included among the angels as one of them. Hebrews 1 clearly spells that out. Also, where in the Bible did you ever get that Jesus is trying to affiliate with the angels and has ranks like them? 🤨 That's pretty crazy.
I never was trying to prove to you guys that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, I'm just showing my facts of why I assume Jesus is Michael the Archangel. The Bible never says that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, but it does say that Michael lead the angels against satan. So Aventists use that passage and say that it seems that Michael is Jesus. And yes Jesus CAN be included with other angels. Jesus' goal is to make a bridge between God and Man(but in this case angels). That is why we think that Jesus afilliates with angels and has ranks like angels. It's no different with man. Jesus ate and drank with man and had the position as a carpenter among men. That, however, does not make him less Godly.
I was literally about to say it proves our point better 😂
BM, so here's what I think is the case. First, you are probably right about there being more than one archangel. However, 1 Thess. 4:!6 doesn't prove that, bc many versions say "the archangel". Plus, just because it says there will be the voice of the archangel does not prove in the least that Jesus is the archangel. Also, what DOES prove that there is more than one archangel, is where is says in Daniel of Michael, "ONE of the chief princes." However, the fact that there are more than one archangel actually proves my point, bc Jesus cannot be included among other angels. ALL the archangels, including Michael, are legitimate angels. Now, probably the reason for several archangels, is that they are over certain "divisions" of angels. I believe that Michael is the archangel over the fighting angels; perhaps Gabriel is the archangel over another type of angel. However, none of that proves that Jesus is one of the archangels, or that He is Michael.
Yes, Micah, that is crazy. 😂
What? you are saying that most archangels are angels but some are not? You are saying the exception is Jesus? That is crazy.
Ok. Here is one thing that I would like to remind you of. I do think that perspective and how some people define words of the bible can help, but not prove a point. I do think that there are multiple Archangels. Here's one verse to prove it: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NKJV): "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." So it says that the Lord uses the voice of an archangel. Notice that he does not say that he uses the voice of THE Archangel, but an archangel. This shows that there is a certain KIND of order called the Archangel that has the leading angel rank. So, yes, I would say that the majority of Archangels are legitimate angels, but I do not think that Michael is an angel. And if there are multiple Archangels why is Michael singled out as their leader in fighting the devil?
Now, let's step back for a moment, bc for one, you don't even understand what archangel means. It does NOT just mean "head of angels" or "chief of angels". First, here is the definition in Webster's dictionary of what archangel actually means: "An ANGEL of the highest order; an ANGEL occupying the eighth rank in the celestial hierarchy." (emphasis added) So, an archangel is clearly by definition an ANGEL HIMSELF. As you know, Jesus is not an angel, so it's impossible for Him to be the archangel. The Greek word used for archangel means "a chief angel". Again, an angel, but a chief angel. An example would be if you had a chief fireman. He is still a fireman himself. He's not just the chief OF firemen, but isn't one himself. It's the same with the archangel and angels.
Ok, I don't agree. The Bible has many points of repetition and this is no different. In Jude, it simply specifying a particular angel, in this case, Michael the archangel.
Here's what I'm saying. If there was a Bible verse that said that the disciples did not fight them(as a demonstration) and another verse that said that Jesus didn't fight them, either, then that would not mean that jesus was one of the disciples. On the contrary, it might even prove that Jesus is different from the disciples because he would be included in the first verse, so it would make no sense for the verse to say that same thing over again if we already knew it.
Ok, look. Just because Peter says that the angels didn't bring slanderous accusation does not mean that it was limited to the angels.
...because it's just a repeat, basically, of what was in 2 Peter, except that in Jude, it particularly specifies that even Michael doesn't bring slanderous accusations. That means that Michael is included among the angels that it talks about in 2 Peter, and it makes that very clear. He's NOT Jesus, and you'd really have to twist it in order to try to get it to say that.
If it Peter said that the angels never brought rivaling accusations, then why does Jude have to say that even Michael the Archangel did as well if he was included in the first verse?
Nooo....That's not my point. Did you look at the two passages side-by-side?? My point, is that when you look at both of these passages, you can clearly see they are speaking of the same thing. I purposely added emphasis so that you could notice what I was trying to show you. 2 Peter 2:10b-11 is speaking of even angels not bringing reviling accusations against celestial beings. Then in Jude 8-9, it's speaking of the exact same thing, except that Jude, instead of just saying "angels" in general, he brings it to the top ANGEL and says that even Michael the archangel did not dare bring a slanderous accusation against the devil. If you use these Scriptures to interpret each other, you can see that Michael is one of the ANGELS.
Ok how does that even make sense? You're trying to prove your point by saying that Michael said to the devil that the Lord rebuked him, and is therefore an angel. Ok here the thing. One, there are multiple beings in the trinity, so when He says "the Lord rebuke you" He can easily mean that he is referring to God or the Holy Spirit. Second, even if he was referring to himself then it would still be like saying "I rebuke you". Jesus often said "for I say unto you" though he could have just said it. Now it would be weird for him to say that the Lord rebuked him, and was referring to himself, but it would not be a super far stretch to see the perspective, though odd. That's why I personally think that he is referring to God or the Holy Spirit. (;
Yes, Vera. Clearly, it's showing that Michael is just an angel, NOT Jesus.
Jude 8-9: "Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. YET MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, DARED NOT BRING AGAINST HIM A REVILING ACCUSATION, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
2 Peter 2:10b-11 (emphasis added): "They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, WHEREAS ANGELS, who are greater in power and might, DO NOT BRING A REVILING ACCUSATION AGAINST THEM BEFORE THE LORD."
Can you please answer the other points?? If you look at 2 Pt 2:10b-11 and Jude 1:8-9 in light of each other, you will clearly see that Michael is an angel.
Michael the Archangel is one of the princes in here. This, however, does not mean that he is an angel, but is a prince. Now of course it does say that he is one of the princes, implying that there are multiple, but that cannot prove be is an angel. That is merely a title of an angel and of Michael. Another thing to see is that he's the Archangel so he IS set apart! Just because Jesus was a messenger from God like the other prophets cannot make Him like the other prophets.
Ahhh! But if you read the WHOLE chapter, you can see, that description is not even speaking of Michael. It is speaking of, what seems to be, another angel. Bc he says the prince of Persia resisted him while he was trying to come to Daniel. Then Michael had to come to help him. So that description really doesn't prove your point.
I understand that you don't believe Jesus is an angel (you made that pretty clear), but the fact is, Michael is an angel. Bc if you read those two passages Roger gave, they clearly are saying that Michael is just another angel--yes an archangel, but not Jesus. The thing about ONE of the chief princes is that if Michael were Jesus, He would be THE chief prince, not ONE of the chief princes. Jesus is not one of many. Saying that would be putting Him at the same level as the others, who would obviously have to be angels.
Btw I do NOT think that Jesus is an angel. He is the Archangel aka the chief of all the angels. that is what I am saying.
ok. so we see that in Daniel 10:13 that michael is one of the princes and helps daniel. Ok. I'm not sure what you were getting at with that, but at any rate look at the way it explains michael the Archangel in the verses before. Daniel 10:6 (NKJV): "His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude." so in this verse we see that Michel has q body like beryl, a face like lightning, eyes like fire, arms and legs like bronze in color, and the voice of a multitude. Now let's see how john describes Jesus. Revelation 1:14–15 (KJV 1900): "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters." Huh! it's almost as if they were describing the exact same person. 🤔
good night... oh, wait it's morning.😉
ok I'll go through this tomorrow. For now goodnight (;
Also, plz read CAREFULLY and compare 2 Peter 2:10b-11 with Jude 1:8-9. I think that will unlock some things for you...
I'm not doubting you btw I just want to see the context of the statement.
Also just because Michael says "The Lord rebuke you" does not mean that he is not Jesus. Let me remind you that Jesus and God are two different beings, and so saying that the Lord rebukes them does not really prove anything.
But we're talking about Him being (or NOT being) the archangel Michael, right? Daniel clearly says Michael is ONE of the chief princes.
Last time I checked I'm pretty sure that chief angel does mean head of the angels....I don't know just a hypothesis. Anyways I never said that Jesus was an angel, I said that he was the leader(or chief) of them.
Also, there is definite proof that Jesus is NOT Michael. Number one: in Jude 1:9, where it calls Michael the archangel, it clearly shows that Michael is not God. It says, "But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!'" See? Michael was an angel, NOT God. Jesus is the Lord, NOT an angel, not an archangel (chief angel). Number two: in Dan. 10:13, it says of Michael, "Then Michael, ONE of the chief princes..." See? It calls him ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES. Jesus is not ONE of several.
Micah and Agent, you're spot on 😉 It never said He was, but it definitely DOES imply that He's not. Fact is, it doesn't matter what Jesus name was before He was called Jesus. Second, the Greek word for archangel means "CHEIF ANGEL". It does NOT mean "leader of the angels" or "head of angels." Jesus is clearly NOT an angel according to Hebrews 1.
But you can’t say that Michael is Jesus just because he is the head of angels, so is God, but does that mean he is an angel?
Interesting points BM and Agent. It never saved he wasn’t, but who are we to assume he was? Also it’s funny how people have adopted the English version of the Greek word for Jesus! 😂 it’s actually Joshua!
Well it never says that Michael was an angel, just the Archangel. Aka head of the angels.
yeah that’s what I’m wondering about
I mean, pardon me for getting involved in a debate that I know absolutely nothing about 😂 just curious how that works out
But.... Jesus is God right? He’s not an angel....
Revelation 12:7 (KJV 1900): "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," So Michael and his Angels fight with the dragon. Now, as you can see in this verse, Michael leads his men *ahem*....angels into battle and cast the dragon out of heaven. Then we see that in Revalation 19 Jesus leads that army of angels against the devil.
Ok so here's the thing. The name "Jesus" was given to Jesus as His human name. we have no idea what His name was before that. Another thing is that Michel is the Archangel, as you have said, who is the leader of the Angels. It would make sense if Jesus was the Archangel, being that he is the leader. Also, the Bible also never says that Jesus was Michel, but it never says he WASN'T😉
ummm...ok? 😅 Like we have to wait till he's taken a course in seminary on it? 😂 If it's true, it should be pretty obvious, just by reading the Bible...I don't see anything obvious there, but the contrary, in fact 🤔
I mean, I’d love to hear where SDAs take this from. Let’s not start the debate until BM has done a little studying.
Ok, let's start, shall we? 😁 So, BM 1, first off, there isn't a single place in the Bible where it calls Jesus the archangel. Second, Jude 1:9 clearly says that Michael is the archangel. Soo...?
well? I think in just a few ways
Yeah, but, really, even tho he's SDA, some of his beliefs are very similar to the JW's.
Yeah... Did my statement make it sound otherwise? 😬
Henry, you're spot-on. (Btw, JWs also believe in soul sleep.)
Isn’t that what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe?
I agree! He is totally NOT an archangel.
@Micah, you're right. Michael is the archangel, so it's really bizarre that they believe Jesus is... so, are you my side, then? 😉
@BM, I haven't studied it either, but that doesn't mean we can't have a debate about it. 😏
Idk what that even means? Isn’t Michael and or Gabriel the Archangel? (Funny I never really realized that angels had masculine names until literally rn)
I believe it, but I've never actually studied it. (:
If so, we could debate about that...
Hmm...BM 1 and/or Micah, do either of you believe in that crazy thing that Marilyn was saying about Jesus being the archangel? 🤔
Course, even tho Micah was getting bored with the last debate, he apparently doesn't even have another topic for us to do 😂
😂 ummm... any new topics?
Yeah 😂 Btw, fun fact: Sheol is mentioned all over the Bible, and not just in that story. 😉
Does anyone have a new, DIFFERENT topic?
ummm, no. Let's be done now 😁
the difference is that sheol is in a parable, but jesus said that a real person in reality was sleeping.
I absolutely do not agree, but we should end. Just one more thing, tho, is that the story of the rich man and Lazuras shows that they are not just unconscious in Sheol. And if you just say that that was ONLY to make a point about something totally unrelated, then I can say that when he said they were "sleeping" it was just to make a point.
Ok. So how about this. When Jesus says that both Lazerus and the girl are sleeping, He was referring to them being unconscious. Just because He says the same thing about lazerus only furthers my point that Jesus refers to the the dead as sleeping. Why? Because they are unconscious, not alive in "Sheol". Jesus is making it very clear when He says "she is sleeping" he is NOT referring to making it as easy as waking her up. Why? Because in both passages of Lazerus and the girl they are both dead and he says that THEY ARE SLEEPING. Not that they are like they are asleep and can easily be woken up. but literally sleeping.
But, after you read my comments, let's just end this debate, bc we're getting nowhere. Besides, Micah's probably like *big yawn* 😂
Good. Then can you please answer Matt. 9:24?
In answer to the passage about the girl, he IS just using a figure of speech. And the reason why is bc, with Lazuras, he said the SAME THING that he was just sleeping. But it turns out that when the disciples got confuzzled about that, he just plainly told them "Lazuras is dead." So that proves that he was simply using a figure of speech. Also, about the girl being "more exuberant", maybe she was exuberant, but the Bible just didn't go into that. Just bc a certain detail was not in the Bible doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened. Plus, remember that she actually went to Sheol (Abraham's bosom) not heaven, bc Jesus hadn't risen from the dead yet.
I also use the Bible to prove my points, but apparently, that isn't enough for you. So, that's why I give you stuff like this video, just to show that real life experiences back up what I'm showing you from the Bible. Also, my discernment does come from God, so it's really him showing me what is true and what's not.
I would still like it if you could give your answer to the verse, but if not its fine...
Look, I get that you are trying to use stories to make me believe, but I think that stories are meant to help with questions, not prove them. You are trying to use stories from unreliable sources that I have never seen before and make be believe that way, but the only sturdy words that I will trust in are the Bible. I do NOT care how legitimate this story sounds. The devil could easily make a better, more convincing, story. Your "discernment" can help, but the only real decerner that we can trust on is God. And he made the Bible, and so that is why I will only use the Bible in debates to prove my point. If you want to end the debate, that fine, but I want you to think about the verses that I have given you and think about them without trying to put your perspective on them.
BM, um, no. I would say more, but in order to bring in this debate for a landing, I'll just 🤐👈😊. But, yes, plz watch the vid I sent. No way you can just blow it off and say he was lying or that it just wasn't true. Bc there's a little thing called discernment, and maybe you don't have it. But my discernment tells me that that story is legit.
Bible Memorizer I, I don't agree, but let's move off of that part, and maybe you can watch the video 😊
Roger, yes! That testimony seemed very genuine to me. That man and his mother strike me as sincere believers.
ok, so first, let me talk about Matt. 9:24. When Jesus says that the girl is sleeping he does not mean it's like she is sleeping. He legitimately says "she is sleeping". Not it's like she is sleeping. And even if it said it was like she was sleeping, it would still mean she is unconscious. The word IS is not a word that means "as to" or "like this". it is something that you ARE. And when it says "her spirit returned" it means that her soul came back from her body. It never says she came back from heaven. All it says is that ther spirit returned to her body. Not only that, but don't you think that the girl would be a bit more exuberant if she had actually been in heaven? Again, Jesus referred the dead girl saying "she is sleeping". He is obviously not saying she that it is like she is sleeping because he can being her back, but that she IS sleeping!
ohh...k...I think I get it...a bit...
No, you said that it was already understandable and interpreted.
Now, it just so happened that last night, my dad sent us a couple videos about ppl who died and went to heaven. (Again, not knowing about this debate) This one in particular is such an amazing and touching story, and it's more proof from real-death experiences that there IS immediate life after death. Plz watch this whole video (about 15 min) Simply amazing and undoubtedly genuine: https://youtu.be/t2sueszCq1M
Ok, BM 1, so in response to what you said regarding the debate: The reason that Jesus said she was asleep was simply bc, for him, raising her from the dead was just as easy as waking a sleeping person. It didn't mean she was actually sleeping. Besides, you totally forget that in that story, it says "her spirit returned" when Jesus raised her. (Lk. 8:55) That mean's her spirit had gone somewhere while she was dead. And, no, she wasn't lying unconscious in heaven. 😂
And Aaron, that illustration didn't really make much sense to me 😂 Are you taking about the Greek and Hebrew?
If y'all are wondering, Roger will be on a little later to respond. He was going to respond last night, but we had to get together for our family prayer meeting. So, don't worry, he's not ignoring you; he does want to answer 😉
think you got the wrong group, BM ll. (:
I don't know if that illustration made sense but that's all that came to mind.😂
also I think if you are trying to figure out a verses it helps you remember it better, instead of having a test given to you and it's already filled out.
And, if I may, say this. What about the Gospels? Are they poetic books? You said that Psalms 15:5 should not be taken literally, but what about Jesus? Matthew 9:24 (NKJV): He said to them, “Make room, for the girl is not dead, but sleeping.” This clearly shows that death is where you sleep, and not just from a poetic book, but from the book of Matthew. And He doesn't refer to "her body", but her. This never says that her body was sleeping, but she was. When YOU sleep it is all of you, not just your body.
Or I could just say it's a poetic book *Ahem* and therefore should not have to be taken literally.
Ok, but lets look at the context of it, first. This verse is not talk in the context of dead people in hell, but trembling before God. This entire chapter is ranting about the greatness of God and his amazing splendor. So much so that even the dead temble. Let's also remember that in the same chapter it also says "the pillars of heaven tremble", as well. Does that mean they are alive? No. And we should take to consideration that this verse it talking about extremes and metaphorical terms like God stretching his hand across the waters, or hanging the earth on nothing. It also never says that they are alive, either.
.... ummm, Bible Memorizer, *ahem*... the verse. You're supposed to answer the verse, plz. You know, so we can get off this debate and move on 😏
If you REALLY want to dig into a verse I reccomend the original greek/hebrew translation.
But, Micah, remember that, if I'm correct, the Hebrew (I had misspoken and said Greek, down below) says, "the dead tremble..." in that verse (Job 26:5). So it actually DOESN'T support what the KJV says; it supports what Roger and I are saying 😏
My thoughts is that no one version is perfect and no one translation is terrible. I mean, KJV says Easter in it 😂 But also I agree with what the BMs are saying that it leaves a lot to you other then other versions. It’s good to compare versions, but don’t throw one out because you believe another one.is saying the opposite right.
Mhmmmm, NASB is da best 😂
Ah, but you forget that the NASB is also aimed at making it very accurate, and it's understandable at the same time 😉
Other translations interpreted the verse for you, while the KJV or NKJV try to make it as accurate as possible.
I tend to use KJV most, even tho other versions are easier to understand, lots of them leave out things and just state the main thing... well they don't really JUST state the main thing but I think u know what I mean.
Oh! Yeah, that makes sense
I looked it up and found that it has spelling changes along with added and omitted words.
And, Henry, (I'm no expert on versions 😅), but I would think the main difference is that the KJV 1900 has more modern language than the 1769 version. But Bible Memorizer I, would probably have more to say about that
Micah, haha.... he meant like that's closer to what HIS version says, but he'll make a little compromise and use the "beloved" NKJV No one said the KJV is always right, cause it just so happens that the Greek says, "The dead tremble" 😉 (You can verify that if you want)
What differences does the KJV 1900 have compared to KJV 1769?
Qoute of the day... “I’ll give it NKJV, SINCE IT’S CLOSER TO WHAT I’M LOOKING FOR” 😂 😂 😂 ig u meant to say something else? 😂
Ugh, it's that KJV *shakes head* They kind of botched the verse 😂 I'll give it in NKJV, since it's closer to what I'm looking for: "The dead tremble,
Those under the waters and those inhabiting them." (Job 26:5) However, I like the way it's put in the NIV better.
Job 26:5 (KJV 1900): "Dead things are formed
From under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof." Where does it say the death are in deep anguish?
hmmm.... or I could end it now sense it’s my group? 🤷♂️
😂 ok... ummm, maybe after we are done with this one, you can pick the next topic
No it’s just that I’m bored of this group. Same convos every time I log on. 😴
Ummm, Micah, have you been sleeping for two days straight? 🤔😂
So, you keep on giving the verse for "the dead know nothing." But if you're trying to say that means that their souls actually know nothing, then what about Job 26:5? "the dead are in deep anguish." 🤔 Of course, we know this is talking about the spirits of the wicked dead who are in hell.
😂 Ok, BM, I think you're getting confused here, but whatever. I'm going to give you one last verse, and after that, we should probably end the debate, bc we're getting nowhere (as it is in basically all the debates 😂) Ok, so I'll give the verse in the next post...
it never said they were talking, which is another reason why I believe it is their impressions, not actual people. Also I never said they were in heaven, either. It says you are SURROUNDED, not watched.
😂 When did I ever say they were talking to us? Witnesses are ppl who SEE something. You know, like witnesses in court. Now, I don't know how much up in Heaven they are able to see of what goes on down here on earth, but this verse is not just speaking of their impressions. And they wouldn't be dead, bc as the Bible says, "For He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, FOR TO HIM ALL ARE ALIVE." (Luke 20:38)
let me explain. It would make absolutely no sense if you had a cloud of witnesses surrounding you that were illegitimately around you. this is talking about the witnesses of people who make an impression on you and convert you.
The could of witnesses can be different people, but even if it were not, this is obviously talking in about their impressions. you ate not going to have a could of dead people talking to you.
No, that's not how I see it. But, anyway, you haven't answered what Roger said most recently about the cloud of witnesses.
Look. this is what the bible is saying. the body dies and the soul that is asleep. And of course Psalms does have figurative speech, but this verse is NOT talking in a figurative sense. And even if it was, then death would still mean you would be asleep "in a figurative sense".
With Is. 26:19, of COURSE it's about the resurrection of the dead! 😂 You're not understanding us. Vera's point with that verse is to answer your question about how we know that it's only the body and NOT the soul that dies. If the soul did die, then it would say that at the resurrection, their bodies and souls rise. But it only says that their BODIES rise, meaning that was all that was dead and in the ground to begin with.
Second, Psalms being a poetic book DOES mean that we cannot everything literally. If you know anything about poetry, it is usually filled with metaphors and figures of speech. In Psalm 24, when it says "lift up your heads, O you gates", it doesn't actually mean that they have heads that they're gonna lift up 😂 It's a FIGURE OF SPEECH. So when it talks about the sleep of death, it doesn't mean the soul is unconscious--it means the body is FIGURATIVELY "asleep".
First of all, the great cloud of witnesses IS talking about ppl who have formerly died. Just read Hebrews 11 and that shows who the great cloud of witnesses is.
And if sleeping the sleep of death is just a poetic term of death that means that you are unconscious when you die. And in addition, you still have not given me a reason why you believe that the verse is talking about the body and not the body AND soul.
Is 26:19 can easily be interpreted as the resurrection.
Also just because Psalms is a poetic book gives no reason to not take it literally.
"since we have been surrounded by eo great a child of witnesses", right? The explanation is actually quite simple. First, I don't think you would legitimately have a cloud of witnesses around you. Second, it is their impressions that surround you. The "cloud of witnesses" is obviously not meaning that there is a cloud of people talking and reforming you. And even if it was a cloud of witnesses around you, the verse never says they were formally dead.
Now, you may have been able to get around the twenty-four elders example (tho that didn't exactly do it justice), but you can't possibly logically get around this: Remember the great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1, spoken of right after and in direct connection with those in Heb 11? How can we have a great cloud of "unconscious" witnesses surrounding us? 🤔 There were countless saints (even unnamed ones) who have gone b4 us spoken of in Hebrews 11, so don't just say that there were a few exceptions.
It means their bodies, bc of all the verses we have given you (one of them being Is 26:19) that point to the fact that the BODY is what dies and then rises at the resurrection, NOT the SOUL. Sleeping the sleep of death is just a poetic term for death. You have to understand that Psalms is a poetic book.
And the verse I'm talking about is Ps. 13:3 specifically. "least I sleep the sleep of death"
Elijah and Moses were examples. Also your explanation was "it meant their bodies" You never told my WHY it meant their bodies. That's the question I'm asking
And secondly, ummm...of COURSE the twenty-four elders are human! They aren't monkeys or angels or something! 😂 You can't just say "they could not be human". Thirdly, Moses and Elijah only constitute TWO ppl, last time I checked; not TWENTY-FOUR. So who are the other twenty-two? (Besides Enoch)
First of all, I've already given you my reply. I'm not going to change my answer just bc of what you said, bc I don't agree with your... wait a min. Which verse says "you" that you were talking about??
Now can you explain my question please?
That doesn't answer my question, but here is the answer to yours: 1, they could not be human. 2, there are exceptions to going to heaven after death. People like Moses and Elijah who Peter, James, and John saw went to heaven before the resurrection.
*sighs* Ok. Now I get what you're trying to say, but I still don't agree. Who, then, are the twenty-four elders who are in Heaven (spoken of all throughout Rev)?
yes, but what I've been saying is that it is not talking about just the body. it is talking about the soul as well. If you did not understand my previous post then here is what I am saying. The term "you" in this verse is not referring to your body or else it would have said "your". Your means something that you have or had, but you is the person who you are, not something you own. So when it says you sleep, it is obviously NOT referring to the just body, but the soul and body.
I DID see your comment, and it did not make a bit of sense to me. I did give you a logical explanation. That's what I believe, and it makes perfect sense. I'm not going to make up something different just cause you don't like my answer. I was saying that bc the body WILL be raised at the resurrection, it is just as good as being asleep. The Bible often uses "sleep"as just another word for "death". And I believe it's for the very reason I just stated.
Ummm, I don't agree with your interpretation of that verse. If God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and they're all dead (meaning their souls are dead) then... He'd be the God of the dead, not the living. The fact that Jesus said that He's the God of the LIVING, means that their souls are not asleep but very much alive.
And I mean explain those verses by not saying that it means that the body sleeps, but why the bible means that. I have shown that it is not talking about the body. if you want to see the comment it was at 2:41 today. Read it and give me a logical explanation.
"for the wages of sin us death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord"
The evil die in hell. But the righteous get eternal life.
Now please tell me what this means, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt 22:32)
About those verses you gave, we have already explained them. The BODY "sleeps", bc it will be "awakened"at the resurrection. (Is 26:19) The soul DOES NOT sleep.
Ummm, the verse itself DOES talk about death... There's no other logical interpretation... bc yours certainly wasn't. All the other commentators interpreted it the same way (and we don't believe it just bc they said it. I'm just saying that to further my point.) And I choose to see it as Jesus telling the thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise."
Now can you please explain Ps. 13:3 and Dan. 12:2
nice, but, again, the verse itself does not talk about death, his interpretation does. Also the thief on the cross can have two interpretations. Jesus could have said "for I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise" or "for I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise". Its all about the comma placement. I go with the latter.
Here is what Albert Barnes said about the verse, and this is EXACTLY what I believe: “We would prefer to die. The same idea occurs in Php_1:23. ‘Having a desire to depart and to be with Christ; which is far better.’ The sense is, that Paul would have preferred to die, and to go to heaven; rather than to remain in a world of sin and trial…That world where the Redeemer is, is heaven. This also proves that the spirits of the saints, when they depart, are with the Redeemer; that is, are at once taken to heaven. It demonstrates: (1) That they are not annihilated. (2) That they do NOT sleep, and remain in an unconscious state, as Dr. Priestley supposes. (3) That they are not in some intermediate state, either in a state of purgatory, as the Papists suppose, or a state where all the souls of the just and the unjust are assembled in a common abode, as many Protestants have supposed; but, (4) That they dwell with Christ; they are with the Lord…They abide in his presence; they partake of his joy and his glory; they are permitted to sit with him in his throne;(Rev3:21). The same idea the Saviour expressed to the dying thief, when he said, ‘today shalt thou be with me in paradise;’ (Luk 23:43).” Boom.💥 Wow, he REALLY nailed it, and I couldn’t have said it better myself. 😊
Uh, hold on, hold on! *smh* 2 Corinthians 5:8 has EVERYTHING to do with death! It is 1,000% talking about death! 😂 You really misinterpreted that verse. I checked several commentators and they ALL said that is has to do with death. Albert Barnes, especially, made some EXTREMELY good points about that verse (see in next post)
Again, the body does turn to dust, but the Bible also says that the soul sleeps. When it says that you sleep in the dust it cannot be referencing your soul in heaven, that would make no sense. But if it is referencing your body I think it would have said so. When the Bible says "you" it does not mean something that you do not have or had. The correct phrase for that would be "your". The bible says in this passage not what you have or had, but what you ARE. Therefore there is no way that this is referencing your dead body.
The body is part of you, but it is not you. Our bodies are remade at the resurrection, but that does not mean that our souls are in heaven with God alive. Just because our bodies return to dust has no relativity to prove that our souls go to heaven and live with God. The bible says that they "sleep" in the dust. Sleep referencing to an unconscious state of mind where the soul knows nothing. And the verse about "absent from the body, present with the Lord" has nothing to do with death. It is talking about not being of this earth. There is no reference to death in that whole verse. The verse IS talking about not being in the flesh.
Yes their bodies!! 😂 God said, "for dust you are and to dust you will return." Now, hmm...🤔 what part of us is made of dust?? Well, it just so happens that our bodies are! 😄 So, that means that our BODIES (made of dust) are the part of us that return to the ground (and "sleep") (Ecc 12:7), and then rise ("awake") at the resurrection. (Is 26:19 "their BODIES will rise") Since our souls are NOT made of dust, they do NOT go into the ground at death, but go to their eternal home (Ecc. 12:5) At the resurrection, the soul is reunited with the body. Even Paul said, "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be AWAY FROM THE BODY and AT HOME WITH THE LORD." (2 Cor. 5:8) See? This is not just talking about after the resurrection, bc it specifically says "AWAY FROM THE BODY". When our souls are away from our bodies, we are at home with the Lord, and we are NOT unconscious. 😂
of course I do, but you cannot prove that that video was real or disprove it. Ps. 13:3 does not say that the body sleeps. It says "least I sleep the sleep of death". not the body, you sleep the sleep of death. Same thing with Dan. 12:2 "those who sleep in the dust of the earth" not their bodies.
And do you even believe in the supernatural?
Ps 13:3 is NOT talking about soul sleep. It's speaking of death. Death of the body.
Soo, what about the verse, "He is not the God of the dead but of the LIVING"?
alright. Let me explain. When you die you sleep in the dust(Dan. 12:2) and your soul is given to God in heaven. However, you are trying to make me pinpoint a certain place where the soul is, when in reality it does not have a direct location. The souls sleeps(Ps. 13:3) and know nothing(Ecc. 9:5). Then once they are dead they sleep until the ressurection (Jn. 11:24).
Now, of course, you make it sound (not really) a little more theological, but that's basically what your belief boils down to. Very... confusing. I mean, why can't you just believe the simple truth that at death, a person's body goes into the ground, and the soul and spirit go to heaven or hell until the resurrection, when they will be reunited with the body and the body will come out of the ground...? That is much simpler and it's 100% biblical.
Ok, so, I'm gonna put my BM hat on and say what it seems like you believe from what you're saying. And remember, this stuff is supposed to be so simple that a little child can understand it.... now 🤔"Ok, um, let's see... so first, when someone dies, their body goes into the ground and...(whatever you believe happens) and then their soul... well, it's this kinda blob thingy that you can't really tell where it is (kinda strange). Ok, so this...blob soul thingy is kinda separated into two blobs--one of the blobs kinda metaphorically sleeps in the dust---but not exactly (pretty confusing). Now the other blob is kinda like in heaven--(again, not really, just kinda)... then, um, at the resurrection... the blobs just kinda come out of the metaphorical dust ground thingy, even tho only one of the blobs was TECHNICALLY in the ground, and the other one was just lying unconscious somewhere up there in Heaven...🤔😂 So, I guess they just kinda "reconnect" at the resurrection. 😂
😂 BM, you really are not making any sense with this...I mean, it's so obvious that you're changing your tune, just to wiggle around these verses we're giving you. When we first started this debate, you're big thing was "in the dust, in the ground". And nothing about heaven. Now we end up a couple months later... and now here's what your theology sounds like to me: (in next post)
And what's the point of our souls not being conscious??
Second, that really doesn't make any sense at all. Besides, what's that verse where Jesus says, "He is not the God of the dead but of the LIVING." (Matt 22:23; emphasis added)
First, about the angels singing, do you even believe in the supernatural??
Second, about Eph. 3:14-15, I have said that our souls are technically in heaven, being that they are given to God, who is in heaven, but they are not conscious.
First, yes, I would put my doubts on a professor especially with the bad noise you cant really hear anything well. Not all professors are right, so I would say that this can easily be incorrect. If they called multiple professors and gave then the song to see what they would say about it, then that would be more believable. My dad's a professor, you I can ask him, if you want.😏
...🤔... wow... that was a "big hit"...😏
"For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom HIS WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives its name."(Eph 3:14-15) A little verse to chew on. 😉
The written lyrics were a bit off
His words were, "All the saints and the angels up in glory wait to hear the news of Jesus and His children as their coming through (or soon)."
And my point is, that if this is genuine (which I one hundred percent believe it is), then this proves our point even further that there are saints in Heaven.
And, Bible Memorizer, they weren't saying that all the saints and all the angels are up in glory (cause we still on earth, and there are many angels on earth, too). They were saying that all of the saints and angels who are up in Heaven are waiting to hear to news. But did you even hear everything at the beginning?? Even the music professor said that some of those notes are higher than the human vocal range can go. You're going to argue with the professor? 😂
ok, first, what is the point if sending this? and, second, no. The reason being that this can easily be staged, the cords can easily be sung be humans, and you can take breaths halfway through without breaking the chorus. Now there is no way to prove this wrong or right, but the "angels" do literally contradict themselves as they sing. They say "all the saints and Angel's are in heaven wait to hear the news". now if all of them are in heaven then what are these guys doing on earth?
Micah and Bible Memorizer I, after you have watched this the whole way through (5:28 mins) and heard all the confirmations at the beginning, do you believe this is genuine? https://tinyurl.com/tbcb79vj
To stop bad attitudes/annoyance.
😒Buuut, Micah, what is even the purpose of the rule?? 🤦♂️😂
Uhh, that's Spanish. You should've said, "Oui". 😂
Sooooo... can I repeal that rule? 😁
Ahem, I'm EXPRESSING myself. 😏
You used way too many emojis in that comment...
Micah, 😥 what's with the new rule that you've just imposed upon us?! You're taking away our freedoms! 😫😩 I demand justice! 😆🤣 Just kidding.... but I still think it's a crazy rule 🙄😝 I mean, what's it gonna hurt for me to do a facepalm? I need to express myself, Micah! 😂
Hmm...Would this help? https://tinyurl.com/2uzs4dwr
I’m not buying a $15 book just for you. 😂
🤔 Idk, you’d have to ask them 😂 don’t make assumptions
Yeah, but think about this... what's the point in a nonbeliever on his deathbed lying about feeling the flames of hell and another about seeing the devil coming to get him?
Yeah, then read the book, cuz maybe that WILL change your mind. Assuming that someone's lying before even investigating is just wrong. That's like guilty until proven innocent. Anyhow, I'm done with this debate.
this debate is udderly pointless. there is literally no way for someone to prove that they were lying or not. you cannot just say "*facepalm* they were not lying!" that will not change our ideas.
*giant facepalm* Micah, it's OBVIOUS they weren't lying. Everything about them! Besides, why would they sit there and lie as they're dying?? Also, it's not good to always assume that ppl are lying before you've even heard their story. Until you've read the book for yourself, plz don't say they are just lying.
U guys are defending people u don’t even know.
🤔 Vera, how would u know that they r all not lying...?
What do you mean you guess it was a vision??
And ppl that they didn't even now had died.
Huh? Then ig it was a vision sense. 🤷♂️ 😂
Besides, even if she didn't die, which she did, she and others saw saints who had gone before them! And they were NOT hallucinating. And they didn't all just make those stories up.
@Micah! she DID DIE! It was right before she died!
@Also, Micah and BM, with Paul's experience, he even said himself that it could have been "out of the body", meaning that he could've been dead. That means that when pp die, their spirits come out of their bodies and go to heaven or hell. Also, with the stories from the book "Voices from the Edge of Eternity" plz do not tell me they are just "coincidences". No way, Jose. 😂 You REALLY need to read the book, and until you have, you shouldn't even start to say that they are just fake or hallucinations.
Also sense she didn’t die, I would say it would be possible that she had a vision.
Yeah, if they REALLY went to heaven they would live differently. If they had a vision they would too, but if they are making it up for themselves, they will love for themselves.
@Vera, I 100% agree with you. @Sethers, not all ppl are like that. You are really just stereotyping them. How do you know anyway about each and every person and how they live their lives after they come back to life?? You don't. So, yes, probably some, but not all.
I don’t know who to agree with, I’ll probably decide a little bit later, but anyways the problem I have with the people who “go to heaven or hell” is that when they come back they live as though Christ is dead, worldly Christians is what you call that
Also, Micah, what do you say about story of the girl I spoke about down below?
No, we shouldn't. I was merely responding to Micah's claims that this only happens to children. And, how can you say that it was a vision, when Paul himself didn't even know if it was??
Thye didn’t go to heaven... they were visions!
first, that was a vision. second, he was not near death. third, if god only revealed this to children then should we just cancel put the adult testimonies about this?
I should say, they WENT to Heaven
Actually, not exactly. 😉. John didn't die; he saw heaven. And Paul doesn't know if he died or not, and HE saw heaven. Remember? He said, "whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know."
But still, you even agree that to go to heaven that person has to die.
(🤦♀️ I had just typed up a whole comment, but the internet went down while I was trying to post it 😥) I was saying... Micah, I had not seen your comment. The girl I was just speaking of WAS dying, and she didn't get raised from the dead, so she would have NO motive to make that up. Secondly, that kind of thing does NOT just happen to children, but even if it did, isn't there a verse that says, "At that time Jesus said, 'I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.'" (Matt 11:25)
Well, I think I'm about done discussing this. Tho, if you ever get around to it, you really should read the book. At least to see what I'm talking about
you're right. it probably wouldn't. first and foremost, the body cannot "see" heaven on its death bed. you can only have visions of it. Also the bible never says that you will see heaven near death.
I would type up stories from the book for you, but, it would take too much time (and it probably wouldn't change your mind)
If she is not dead and dying, the. she can’t go to heaven. Unless you die, you will not be in heaven. You have to die. 😂 and why does this happen only to children 🤔 weeelllllll, ya know, that’s pretty suspicious. Maybe they DO want attention.
*facepalm* seriously... and btw, right now, I'm talking about "Voices from the Edge of Eternity", just making sure we're both on the same page.
you are trying to put solid reasoning on an unstable story.
4. a mere misinterpretation. and, 5. you are using things other than the bible to prove your point. they can certainly HELP to prove your point, but these stories have not proof.
1. you cannot prove the legitimacy of that. 2. that can easily be a coincidence. she could say that because her friends are walking with her to heaven. 3. she could not even be talking about heaven.
😐 I honestly wish I could *facepalm* rn....Bible Memorizer, this isn't bigfoot we're talking about, so plz stop saying it's like that. Until you read the book (which I HIGHLY recommend you do), plz don't keep saying they're false, cause they're not. How do you say that a dying girl, who has no idea that two of her friends just died, is hallucinating that they are going through the gates of heaven??
Did you know that it is basically the same story except one admitted it was fake! So.... you think for some reason this one can’t be???
you cannot prove your point with stories of people's testimonies that you cannot prove.
look. I know the stories seem true. however. even if they were true there is literally no way to prove it. as i said before, bigfoot has multiple stories about it. same with loch ness. both fake with many believers.
I hadn't seen that yet, but that boy is NOT the one I'm talking about. I'm talking about Colton Burpo.
Um... go look at my post. Just shows people do it to get attention.
Secondly, those ppl were NOT just hallucinating. You haven't even read the book. I have, and there's no way all those ppl were just hallucinating. I also felt the presence of the Lord as I read some of the glorious testimonies just today, and I can't make that up.
....ummmmm, please tell me when, where and how Colton Burpo "confessed" it was staged. 🤔🤔 Bc I have evidence otherwise, from his own mouth: https://tinyurl.com/3h59hfw
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/21/boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-alex-malarkey
Vera, exactly. RESERVED them unto judgement. Not tourchered them in hell.
Here's the thing. just because smyhere are a lot of stories about it doesn't mean its true.
here is a little secret....BIGFOOT IS REAL! that's right. I said it. there have been over ONE THOUSAND reports in just America!
When someone dies, God already knows what his final destination will be, bc He knows everything before it happens. So when a person dies, whether he gets judged right after he dies or not (of course we all know there will be a final judgement), really doesn't make a difference, bc his eternal destination stays the same once he dies. In 2 Peter 2:4 and 9, it says, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, TO BE RESERVED UNTO JUDGEMENT...Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and TO KEEP THE UNRIGHTEOUS UNDER PUNISHMENT for the Day of Judgment.” So He handles it in the same way He does the fallen angels.
and also what micah said. you cannot be judged to condemnation in hell if you have already been there for years.
first of all for the "heaven is for real" book the boy later confessed that the whole thing was a stage. Second, in your death bed you can easily hilusonate. Especially about something that you believe in.
But you wouldn’t go to hell till judged. And there is a “judgement day.” there would be no judgement day if people just got put where they would be.
Micah, have you ever read the book "Voices from the Edge of Eternity" compiled by John Myers? Anyone who reads this book from cover-to-cover cannot possibly come out the other side still believing in soul sleep. It is a compilation of true stories of death-bed accounts, some from hundreds of years ago, and some from more recently. There were many, many ppl who, as they were dying, spoke of loved ones they were seeing beyond the gates of heaven. Some didn't even know that these ppl had died yet. And others, as they were going to hell, shouted out about feeling the flames or about seeing the devil coming to get them. What do you say about this? You cannot possibly brush these off, even if you say that all the testimonies of ppl coming back to life are false, which they're not.
That was just a guess. Basically saying that most of these ppl are not just making this stuff up
95% are genuine (like you know this)
Yeah, Micah, this be not very wrong 😂
If you want examples, just look it up and you'll find countless testimonies of ppl who've died and gone to heaven and then have come back to life. You're telling me you've never heard of that boy Colton Burpo and his testimony called "Heaven is for Real"? And also this guy: https://youtu.be/ZjiVYEoAdZg As well as so many others! Probably 95% of them are genuine.
Also, yes, with these ppl, they do have to leave heaven and go back to earth. And they even say that they did not want to leave, but God told them that their mission on earth was not yet completed, so they needed to go back. So, it is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that it could happen.
Umm...Micah? 🤨🤔 First of all, yes, it does mean that they will have died twice and been resurrected twice, but there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. If you didn't notice, all throughout the entire Bible ppl died and then were raised from the dead and came back to life! Meaning that they would go thru that twice. So what? It's Biblical that ppl can die and then have their body come back to life before the resurrection.
People.... what people? If they actually died and went to heaven then that means they will die twice and resurrected twice. This be very wrong. Also if God let someone go to his kingdom, why would he take it away from them and send them back to earth?
Ok, switching the topic slightly, I want to ask you two (Micah and BM) a question: so, if you say that ppl don't go to Heaven or hell right after they die, then how come there have been countless ppl who've died and GONE TO HEAVEN and actually seen saints up there?? That should definitely prove that soul sleep is false. Bc you can't just tell me that all those ppl were lying.
😂 Yeah, God knows what He's doing...
😂 yeah, I'd say... just like in the story the Pharisees told, that Jesus was responding to in that passage
yeah. if marrage was in heaven then people who where widowed and then married again would have some....issues....
Yeah, of course with the animals it doesn't work the same way as how ppl get saved. 😂 But they probably still go somewhere when they die. Also, yes, I think that ppl will have companions in heaven, too. But not like married as they are here.
Micah, Jesus said in Matt 22:30, that at the resurrection, "people will neither marry, nor be given in marriage..." So there's our answer. But I think that ppl will have companions, maybe.
I kinda tend to agree with Roger about the animals
I think that sense God created animals they will be there, but idk about it working like how people get saved. I’m not sure that if my dog or cat dies they will be in heaven. I do know however that there will be dogs/cats in heaven. But why should it matter if it was “mine.” Also what do you guys believe about marriage when you go to “heaven” (kingdom of God, not heaven/new heaven and new earth)
I think that, since heaven will be a place that makes us happy, we will have our pets there. And I don't think that animals are really "bad" like we are. They went into sin without eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So I do think they will be in heaven.
...I know this is kinda a not very important topic, but what do you guys think happens when an animal dies? I tend to think that since they have souls, too, they go to Heaven, and maybe some animals that were really "evil" or demon possessed go to hell? 🤷🏼♂️I know, sounds weird but I mean, what else would happen? They wouldn't just cease to exist.
yep. same. Thanks for the feedback.
Yes, Vera, absolutely. And I definitely don't agree with the interpretation number 2. That's a really crazy one, as you all already know 😅
I'm completely off the persuasion that the baby would go to Heaven. If its soul never lived, then when would it start living? And if it wasn't living in the womb, then how would abortion be murder?
By the way, if you were wondering, I have no optional belief. I'm just showing both sides. I also was not saying that they go to hell. There are actually three interpretations that I know of. 1. the baby goes to heaven, 2. the baby either goes to heaven or hell depending on how he would've lived(I disagree), or 3. the baby's soul never lives.
I agree, Roger! Also, "Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.'" (Matthew 19:14). Before a child is at the age of accountability, he will go to Heaven if he dies.
Micah, of course they were in the world! They are inside their mother's womb, and that counts. Are you saying that a baby who's never sinned is going to go to hell if they die?? That's crazy. And they don't just just cease to exist either bc they have souls already--even in the womb. So, the only other place they could go would be heaven!
Because they were never in this world! they never once sinned! They never got the forgiveness of God!
Yes! Vera and Aaron, I agree.
Also, keep in mind this verse: "He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I WILL GO TO HIM, but he will not return to me.” 2 Sam 12:22 (emphasis added) If this was true of the baby that was born, then why isn't it true of the unborn?
Yes, why would God send the baby to hell?? And if you say, "It would go to Limbo"... uh, definitely not. There's no such place!
sry that was a bit rough.
well, the babies don't have a choice, they can't choose to get saved or not, because they don't understand yet. They would rather have to go to heaven or hell, they have souls. that's why I think they will go to heaven. unless you can find a verse about it.
I agree that abortion is terrible, but I don't have any idea of what happens after it dies. There are zero Bible verses about that.
I agree, it's not good at all it's murder.
No (I knew you were going to say that since you had said it before on Former SDAs), because, first of all, if you say that, then you are saying that if a newborn baby or a baby all way up to the age of accountability were to be killed, that would be a good thing, cause then they would absolutely go to Heaven. Then you would say, "Well then, a baby can't go to Heaven; it has to go to Limbo," or some ridiculous place like that. Do we say that for a born baby, whom we KNOW has a soul? No. (At least I hope you don't.) Then, what about an unborn baby, who obviously already has a soul, or else it wouldn't be living?
here's the thing: if a baby goes to heaven if it dies, and if it probably wouldn't have if it have lived on earth then that makes abortion good in a sense because the baby will have a 100% chance of being in heaven.
🤔 That's weird. I believe we can know, and I DO know 😅
Idk, and I don’t believe we will know until we are w/Christ
Sethers isn't saying anything on other groups he said there was nothing to say.😬
What do you think Bible Memorizer I and/or Micah and/or Sethers? 😅
So, the answer is yes. From the time of conception a baby has a soul. If they are aborted, they go to heaven and are cared for there and brought up. That is what I believe is true
Wow, BM, it's a HUGE coincidence that you mentioned that!!!! My family and I were JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT A FEW DAYS AGO!! 😮😮😂😂😂
Do they "go to heaven"? or do they not have souls yet?
What happens to babies if they're aborted?
I don't really have any either.......🤷♀️
ok, any topic suggestions?
well it's been two days. I'm ready for a debate.
Wait a minute, Roger! Everyone hasn't finished sharing yet 😂
So, anyone up for another debate? 😛😅
Yeah, I'm assuming everyone on this group is saved. It's a great way to get to know someone by sharing testimonies 😊
also not everyone on here is saved. sooo... but I think everyone on this group is.
I just want to clarify one thing that I said down below: I picked the wrong choice of words when I said "my testimony of nothing too special", because it is very special to me. And according to Rev 12:11, it's what I am to overcome the devil with along with the blood of Jesus. So, yeah, just thought I'd clarify 😄
Pst...Micah, I made a couple comments on Final Events SDA. Just a little advice, you might NOT want to suggest Theological Discussions to her, bc I kinda want to keep this group just limited to kids' and youth debates, and not get the adults involved here. Ya know? 😉 Just letting you know so that you don't accidentally slip up and say that 😂
That's fine! 😂 I mean, it's a testimony, nonetheless. Mine is nothing too special, either, and I didn't think I had much of one until my dad encouraged me to write it all down, a couple years ago.
uhh, mine’s not that interesting but ig… give me a little bit
Micah, wbu? or BM 1? or Agent?? 🤷♂️😅
When I was nine, my family went through a stage where the Lord refined us with fire. At that time, I recommitted my life to the Lord and was baptized in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I think it was when I was nine, that I was baptized in water. Then, at the age of fifteen, I again recommitted my life to the Lord, and He filled me with joy.
This is my testimony, summarized. Along with Roger, I grew up in a Christian home with parents who read the Bible and prayed with us. As a little girl, I already displayed faith in God. When I was four, during family devotions one night, we prayed that God would show us which passage to read from the Bible. My father felt the Lord leading him to read from John 3. Just before he said so, I declared, "The Lord said we're going to read from John." I ended up receiving Jesus that night, and my father prayed for me to be filled with the Holy Spirit. After that, I would share my faith with neighbors and strangers and expressed to my family my desire to share Jesus with the world.
Yeah 😂 Btw, I forgot to add that I was baptized at age 9.
I guess this gives a little break from debates.😅 unless someone says testimonies are wrong. 😂
Great testimony, Bible Memorizer! 😄
Praise God! Yeah 😊 Mine has lots of details that make it kinda long, but I'll try to write up a shortened version in a little while.
I didn't put in lots of details there cuz that would be to long.
oops I meant isn't very long.
I think the first person I led to Christ was when I was on a trip and we went to a church that supports us. I had met a kid ( well he was like six years older than me but)and we became friends. and when I was talking to him I asked him if he had ever been saved he said no. then I asked if he wanted to be saved and he said he did so I talked to him and told him how he could and he prayed right there In front of me.😀
I grew up in a Christian home with Christian parents and Grandparents. I don't know the exact date but one day when I was five on the way back from the store, I just randomly said Mom I want to get saved. And there in the car I prayed to God and asked for forgiveness and for him to save me. Right when I got inside I started telling my dad ( my pastor) and everyone in the house I got saved. then I wanted to get baptized and a year later I did.!☺️
mine is very long but here we go.
Since then I have recommitted my life to Jesus and by the grace of God, I continue to follow Him. To God be the glory. 😄 I like the quote "Any good you see in me in Jesus, and all the mistakes are mine." (not sure who "coined" that phrase, btw)
During those tender years when I was just a little child, God continued to reveal Himself to me in various ways through nature, through His Word, and through my parents. For example, I once looked up at the stars in the dark evening sky and said, "Wow! God is in heaven!" As a result of God revealing Himself to me, I began to desire a relationship with Him. One occasion in particular that stands out to me was on Christmas, when I was three and a half. My father was washing and dressing me and I told him I wanted to pray to give my heart to Jesus. So I did that, as he led me in that prayer, and then he prayed for me to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
🙂Here's a "brief" version of my testimony: There were various points during my early childhood when I prayed to give my heart to Jesus, beginning when I was only two and a half. Only nine days after that, while I was on the phone talking to my aunt, she asked, "Who's this?" I said, "I'm Christopher, and I love Jesus." That was the first time I had ever said that on my own, and that was how I began publicly identifying myself with Christ. On another occasion, when I was three years old, I once again publicly identified myself with God. At a playground, I saw a little 4-year old boy, and ran over to him happily saying, "Do you know God?"
Hi! 😂👋 Just chillin' right now, but we can share our testimonies, as Vera suggested, if you'd like 😁
😬 Yikes! Yeah, you'd better be thankful! 😂
I don't think we threw them hard enough to reach him though. Lol thankfully
we threw them while they were in a jar.
😂 threw the babies at him.😬😬😂
😮 Thou art crazy, dude! 😅
We once found a black widow nest and the the babies at our friends older brother. We also used shards of glass we found outside as phones. I also once got lost in the woods and had to use a compass to get back...good times lol😂
😂 Yeah, when we were in Hungary, one of the houses we lived in was right near this place we dubbed "the center of Diösd". We children could ride our bikes all over the area, unsupervised. It was pretty fun, finding our way around and everything. But we never got participatory wild, as far as I can remember 😅
I've always been in the country. The issue is that most of my childhood I've been unsupervised with my friends so we kind of crazy outdoors.😅
we don't live in the city city but it's close.
no not always but mostly.
Yeah...have you always lived in the city? We live in the suburbs rn.
ok, maybe, Roger! wow I would love to do that but I live in the city.😑
But, as an interlude before our next debate, I'm interested to know what all y'all's salvation testimonies are. 😁 I'm kinda busy rn, so I'll tell mine later, but what do y'all think?
Yeah, the debate was getting....yeah...basically what Vera said. xD
Hi, just went on a long, refreshing walk and ate a "ton" of wild black raspberries.😆😋
No, it wasn't getting long, just... old... and frustrating 😅
what!!! the one about eternal hell was four days!
Micah why stop the debate?
but there is more then one winking emoji.
also is a tongue sticking out on that winky emoji for apple?
@Roger, you can call it what you want😜
I suppose we can end it...
I'm for it, but well see what roger says.
Enoch and Elijah were not resurrected early. They were just taken up into heaven alive.
I make a petition to stop this petty “debate”
As I said, BM, I will use the translation of my preference.
I know that. They were just examples. Some people do get resurrected early.
Rev 4:4 is not talking about Moses and Elijah. Bc it says they were souls that had been martyred... Moses and Elijah were NOT martyred last time I checked 🤔
Psalm 68:18 (KJV 1900): "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive:" I have no idea where you got train from, but again, please use KJV or NKJV.
Also, I can use whichever translation I choose, during the debates. The KJV is not the only correct Bible translation, you know...I personally use the NIV 1984, and I will continue to mainly use that one.
Rev 4:4 explanation is easy to explain. They could not me human, but even if they are the Bible shows that there are some people who do get resurrected early(like Moses and Elijah).
First, Eph 4:8 DEFINITELY says that he took ppl with him into heaven. It says, "He led captives in his train"!
Revelation 22:8 (KJV 1900): "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the ANGEL which shewed me these things." I don't know what translation you used, but in debates stay with KJV or NKJV
Rev. 20:13 says THE DEAD IN HELL. Not the dead bodies. The strait up dead souls in hell.
Eph. 4:8 never says Jesus took the righteous into heaven, it says that He ascended.
To Rev 20:13: I never said that their souls were dead in hell. Their bodies are dead--their souls are in hell. *facepalm* This is getting kinda frustrating 😅
John 3:13: Prior to Jesus resurrection, the righteous dead did not go to heaven, but to Sheol, or Abraham's bosom. But then when Jesus ascended, "He led captives in His train" (Eph. 4:8) (the righteous dead) up into heaven.
Rev. 20:13 furthers my point. You say that only souls are in hell, but they are dead. That shows that people who are in hell are very dead.
Roger, about acts 2:34. Don't people immediately go to heaven? What do you mean at that time David had not ascended into heaven?
Rev. 5:13 is talking about Angel's in heaven, under the earth means underground l, not literally under the earth. What the verse is saying is that all creatures sing and praise God. do you really think that people who are tourchered are singing in hell?
Acts 2:34: He was saying that at that time, David had not ascended into heaven. It did not say that he never did.
Also, to further prove that ppl are in hell before the final judgment, Rev 20:13 says, “The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and DEATH AND HELL gave up the DEAD THAT WERE IN THEM, and each person was judged according to what he had done.” They were already in hell BEFORE the resurrection of the wicked. That is proof.
Acts 2:34 (NKJV): For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Who are the twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4) mentioned in Rev. ALL OVER THE PLACE AND BEFORE THE RESURRECTION? What about this verse? "Then I heard EVERY CREATURE in HEAVEN and on earth and UNDER THE EARTH and on the sea, and ALL that is in them, singing:" (Rev 5:13, emphasis added) Who are the souls under the altar IN HEAVEN? (Rev 6:9) Who is the man who showed John around in heaven? (Rev 22:8-9) He said he was a "FELLOW SERVANT WITH YOU AND WITH YOUR BROTHERS THE PROPHETS..." Please answer to ALL OF THESE.
John 3:13 (NKJV): "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."
When you say that just the body will rest it doesn't make sense. The bible says that the man will rest, not just the body.
@Roger, yog said that the body is part of the man. That's just it. The body IS NOT THE MAN. Both soul AND body go to rest.
Our bodies ARE needed at the resurrection, bc it clearly says that at the resurrection, "their BODIES will rise". (Is. 26:19, and other place in the Bible) 🤔 I mean, how much clearer does it have to be? Besides, it doesn't even make sense to say that the soul is just sleeping in some random place. So, our souls are just floating around somewhere asleep? That's pretty crazy. 😂 I'll wait till BM responds to what I said below, and then I'll give more scriptural backing.
He never said it is in the ground sleeping. He said the body is in the ground, decaying, not needed again. the soul is sleeping, not in a specific place. See, it wouldn’t make sense that God takes our souls, we live with him with our souls, then God gives our bodies to us later.
Now, what verse EXPLICITLY says that the SOUL is in the ground sleeping? Bc I have more Scriptural backing that proves otherwise.
Also, you can determine the location of the soul. It is not just omnipresent, as the Holy Spirit is. The Holy Spirit is God, so He is omnipresent. The soul of a man is not.
Um, the body is apart of the man, too. The man is made up of a spirit, soul, and body. So, when it says "man" in this passage, it could most certainly be referring to his body, and it most likely is, bc of Scriptural context.
And about the soul I am still saying that it does not have a certain location. Like I said before, you cannot put the direct location of the Holy Spirit. The soul is sleeping in the dust in a metaphorical sense.
Job 14:12 never says the body lies down and does not rise. It says MAN lies down and does not rise. Never does it say the body.
yeah, I agree, I was gonna say something but me was too tired.😉
Sorry about the multiple posts, btw. 😳
In Job 14:12, yes, the BODY lies down and does not awake until the resurrection. Bc as Is. 26:19, says, it’s the BODY that rises at the resurrection, not the soul. The soul has already been in heaven or hell.
When the Bible refers to death as sleep, it is just a figure of speech. You even said yourself that—and I quote—“the Hebrew translation of the word for ‘sleep’ literally translates to sleep or DEATH.” (emphasis added) See? DEATH. Sleep in those contexts equals death, NOT literal sleep of the soul. There is no verse in the Bible that explicitly says that the SOUL is asleep. The BODY is “asleep”, bc it’s going to be resurrected one day.
Second, Ecc. 12:5 most certainly shows that ppl go to their eternal home right after they die. It is talking about what happens right before they die, and then it says, “Then man goes to his eternal home, and mourners go about the streets…” showing that he has just died (mourners are going about the streets), and that man has gone to his eternal home. This passage is not at all speaking of the resurrection. It’s speaking of death.
Ok, first things first—the soul is most definitely a literal being. It is quite preposterous to say that it is just your personality or character. Let’s see…Psalm 103:1 would be “Praise the Lord, O my (personality/character)…” Uh, no. That would also mean that the personality/character is sleeping in the ground…that does not make sense at all either. This is Strong’s concordance definition of the Greek word for soul: “breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul…”
Psalm 6:5 (NKJV): For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks?
Psalm 13:3 (NKJV): Consider and hear me, O Lord my God;
Enlighten my eyes,
Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Job 14:12 (NKJV): "So man lies down and does not rise.
Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake
Nor be roused from their sleep." The Hebrew translation of the word for "sleep" literally translates to sleep or death.
Jesus many times referred to someone's death as "sleeping".
And what I mean by the souls sleeping in the ground is that they are given to God, but they "sleep" in the ground. The thing about the soul is that it is not a literal being, it is your personality and character. It's like trying to put an exact location on the Holy Spirit.
What I meant by that is that Ecc. 12:5 never says "and man will die and go to heaven immediately." it just says he goes to his eternal home.
Yeah, I did give that verse during the other debate, but let's try to stay on topic, like you said 😉
And also bm, we can go back to a recent debate. Ecc.12:5 you said it yourself, ETERNAL HOME!... and I changed the subject again. 😂
I also have another verse, but I'll save it for later...😅
Ecc. 12:5: um...of course it's talking about death. Right in that verse and in the verses surrounding it! It says, "Then man goes to his eternal home, and mourners go about the streets." That is most certainly speaking of death. Look at the context, too. Clearly about death.
With Is. 26:19, of course it's the resurrection! And I never ever said that the resurrection happens right after you die, but it seems like you think I believe that. I gave that verse bc you were trying to say that at the resurrection, their SOULS are what "awake" or rise out of the dust of the earth. But it's not their souls that rise, bc their souls are already in heaven or hell. Their BODIES rise.
Second, you're still throwing Ecc 9:5 at me 😅 and in response to that I say, what about Job 26:5? It says, “The dead are in deep anguish…”
Ok, I really feel like putting the facepalm emoji rn 😅 First of all, in response to your first post, you are changing your tune, bc in the last debate on this, you said that their souls are in the ground sleeping until the resurrection. And you gave Dan 12:2 for that. Now, you're saying that they're not...🤔
And Ecc. 12:5 says that man goes to his eternal Home. However, it says nothing about death in the whole verse.
Is. 26:19 never says when their bodies will arise. You can easily interpret this as the Resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV 1900): For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ok. When the Bible says "their spirit departs" it does not mean they are alive in heaven. Their souls are given to God and they are kept with him until he will restore them to their bodies. When their spirits return to their bodies then they are alive again. Which is why Resurrected people have no recollection of Heaven.
... or maybe just not active.😉
I second that cough 😂... looks like someone's confuzzeled...
... coughs, waiting for a reply.😂😉
Now, you kept giving me the verse that says “the dead know nothing”. But Job 26:5 says, “The dead are in deep anguish…” It’s talking about ppl who are in hell. So the preceding verse cannot possibly mean that they actually are just unconscious or sleeping. Also, you kept on throwing at me Dan 12:2, and I kept on telling you that at the resurrection, their BODIES awake, NOT their souls. And this verse proves that: “But your dead will live; their BODIES will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.” (Is. 26: 19) It says “their BODIES will rise.” See?
When Jesus raised the girl from the dead, it said, “Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up.” (Luke 8:55a) Her spirit RETURNED it was not just still in her body sleeping. It had been gone somewhere.
Then it says, “and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” (12:7) This verse explicitly states that the BODY (which is made of dust) returns to the ground, NOT the soul or spirit of a person. Instead, for believers, they leave the body and return to God. Also, Psalm 146:4 says, “When their spirit DEPARTS, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.” The spirit departs and goes to heaven or hell. The body returns to the dust.
Ok, verse number one: "Then man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets." (Ecc. 12:5) This clearly says that when man dies, he goes to his eternal home. And it's not just later on sometime at the resurrection--it's right at the time when he dies, bc it says "and mourners go about the streets."
😂Ok, you can be done hanging on now, bc I have it all ready to go. This is gonna be several posts, so plz excuse me 😂 Also, I'd like for you (Micah and BM 1) to respond to ALL of these. 😊
📦 I hope I fell of this.😬not this🌉
HANGING ON!!!! nooooo... I fell.😫😂
Well, BM 1 might want to say a word or two, but I guess I can go ahead and give my verses. Hang on...
Meh, I don’t really wanna do this debate again. just state your verses and I’ll say my opinion.
oh yeah I forgot u said that.😄
Well, I'd like Micah and BM 1 to respond to what I said below, plz. 😉⬇⬇ (about the soul sleep debate)
wut we gonna debate about now?
'Course you never did put up the picture of you after your haircut...
😝 Got my haircut, Micah. Wbu?
He's getting a 💇🏼♂️ rn 😉
I’m watching the chosen rn, plz remind me tomorrow 😂
Specifically, what happens to the person's body and spirit.
So, to start out in an orderly fashion--Micah and/or BM 1, plz tell me what you believe happens when someone dies, and then what happens later, at the resurrection. Also, give verse references that support your points, as you give them.
Yep! 😁... but I'm still gonna come back to that other debate I wanted to rehash a bit 😉
It’s probably one of the only necessary beliefs for Christianity. you can believe in pre or post trib, or trinity or not, sabbath, or clean and unclean, but this is necessary for every Christian to agree on.
No one should disagree on this.
You didn't, but I want sure what you were saying yeah to. 😂
when did I ever disagree? 😂
Hey, BM 1, you're invited to Friendly Chats, if you'd like to join. 😉 It's a sister group of this one, but it's for chatting.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph 2:8-9) However, "faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." (James 2:17) I think that says it all. 😄 So no, we are not saved by works, but when we are saved, our faith should be showing itself by our deeds.
cuz if any of you do I can prove you wrong in a few taps to the keyboard.😄
so that ended short, now I have another thing I don't know if any of us will disagree on. can you get to heaven by works, or do works help you get salvation?
Sooooo, who are you planning to "boot out" on the "other group"? 🤔😂
🤔 Sooo, why do you need to know how to kick ppl out?
Micah, 😮...you wouldn't!! 😂 I know, are you gonna kick yourself out? 😆 And yeah, it can only be done on a PC
Micah, what? Are you going to kick me and Roger out? 😥😂
@micah, I'm pretty sure you can kick people out of groups on computer.
I don't think there's anything WRONG with sending money by mail, but I also don't think theres anything wrong with putting it in the plate, as long as you aren't doing it with pride. The sinario that Jesus was talking about when He said this is that there was a money box at the front of the temple where all the people would donate their money. People who were rich would use it as a place to flaunt their wealth, and sometimes they would use trumpets to draw more attention to them.
Does anyone know why I can’t kick people out of my groups?
I agree with Roger and Vers and Bm. 😂
And, oh yeah, YOU were actually the one that had ended that debate, bc we were piling on the proof and it got to be too much for you ig...😝
Yeah, but like you said yourself, I really hate it when I come across a verse later that I didn't give... please? ☺️🙏
I thought we stopped it cuz we were/and would never get anywhere tho
Ummm, would you guys mind if I sorta rehashed an old debate (the one about soul sleep)? Bc since that debate, I've found several verses that I really wish I had used in that debate. 😅
Yes, I agree with Vera and BM. 😉
Yeah, I mean, however you want to do it, just always do it with correct motives is I think the main point.
Or give it to the person in charge before or after the service in private.
But they can see if you did give. And there is no reason not to just send it in by mail.
also jesus said that we should also pray in secret. Does that mean that we should also never pray in church? No. What he meant by saying this was that we should not pridefully show that we gave a lot of money or are extremely spiritual in prayer.
Whenever the offering plate goes around in church no one can really see what everyone else gave. We just give as we can.
I don't think it's wrong for the offering plate to be passed around in the church. Just as long as those who are giving an offering are not giving it to be seen by others. And as long as they are not giving reluctantly or under compulsion.
Yes but you shouldn’t give it in public.
Do you guys believe in the offering plate in the church? I do not, sense God tells us to give in secret. We send how much we want to give to our church instead of giving it at church so everyone can see.
Yes, the offerings are whatever extra we want to give after our tithes.
😂 No, Bible Memorizer I, but I believe, with our offering, THAT is what we can decide how much to give of. And the offering doesn't exactly have to go to the church you attend.
😂Nope, we believe in giving a tenth.
Ok good. I was hoping you wouldn't say that God us ok with whatever we give.
yeah that's what I believe also.
Yes, we believe the tithe should be a tenth of our income also... isn't that what 'tithe' actually means?
What the Seventh day Adventists church does is each member will give one tenth of what they have earned that week to the Church. It's very simple and easy.
yes, but how MUCH tithe should we give? I think this verse explains it well. Leviticus 27:32 (KJV 1900): And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord.
Ok, so the new topic is if we should tithe. I believe that we should tithe. What about you guys?... thing is, everyone's all gone right now 😕😅
ok well we'll see tomorrow.😄
Um, well, maybe we can start tomorrow, but I have an idea...Thing, is, I'm not sure if any of us will even disagree on the topic 😅
soooo... what we gonna debate about now?😀
I like it. but mr. picky over here? 😂
It's another one of his paintings called "The Lion of Judah" 😊 C'mon Micah! It's good! 😂
...actually Roger just came back in...😏...hang on...
Roger's outside, rn, but, btw, you can find Danny's paintings on inspired-art.com
Now, I like the picture, but sense as do not believe it is historically accurate, I would respectfully ask you to please change it. I do believe you are going in the right direction tho 👍 👏
Background of what I am about to say: Our family believes that the way most people interpret “the cross” is wrong. HISTORICALLY when romans crucified their victims they gave them a cross beam to carry then and they posted them to trees. That is how we believe Jesus was crucified.
Yes, it's a painting by a guy we know named Danny Hahlbohm. It's called "Your Move".
is that Jesus on a chess peice?
How's that? I can change it to something else if you don't like it....
Hmm...😏...a cool picture...
Roger, I like pictures that are cool
... yah that’s when most people go to college.
Wow, your sis is already going to college? I thought she was only 18. 🤔
Micah 😥 I actually like the last one better. What do skyscrapers have to do with theology anyway?? Can I change it back? 😪 Pwweeze?!🙏🙏
Yah, my sis just moved into college. 😂 actually on Father’s Day! What a gift for our dad 😆
it was actually Central Park, New York. 😂 also it had skyscrapers in the background
It was just grey and bleak, and it looked like a graveyard...yugh...😓
I was gone Why is the pic depressing?
Has anyone seen Micah or Sethers around? They haven't been on for a long time
Ok, let's be done with this debate now, we're not getting anywhere 😌
Ok. But still that is their general definition of destroy. This certain Greek word is very obvious
See? That's another example of how I'm NOT always right and I can make mistakes, in case you didn't notice. 😉
Correction: I'm sorry, it was Thayer's Greek Lexicon that said that. (That's the problem of trying to look things up on my phone 🤦♀️)
I'll believe you on what the strong's concordance says, but even so the Greek word for this definition of "destroy" in this verse is ἀπόλλυμι. And that definition is obviously not defined as metaphorical or to devote.
Well, Bible Memorizer, (and I know I wasn't really in this debate) in Strong's concordance, it says that word "destroy" can be "metaphorically, to devote or give over to eternal misery:", and it gave that verse as an example. We should really be done now, tho, because this is not getting us anywhere.
that debate went on for four days.😅
it literally means UDDERLY DEMOLISH. No trace left, no remains. nothing. And I know you're going to say that they are being destroyed constantly, but never die. However, you cannot udderly destroy and kill something with it still being alive. That literally makes no sense.
Look I know that you think that when the Bible says death it means the death of the body, but what about Matthew 10:28? It states clearly that the soul and body are both destroyed and your explanation was, and I quote, "it is not the being of those, but the WELL BEING of both". I looked up the Greek word for destroy and here's what is translated to: to destroy utterly; kill; slay; to destroy; demolish; waste(Lexicon translation).
You know, that kind of thing with our dad speaking about the topics we're debating on without knowing we're debating about it, occurs quite often...
Yeah, and that just so happens to be because when the wicked die, they go to hell. Anyhow, we are really just going in circles with this, so we should end. Also, to begin with, we both have different beliefs of what death actually is, so...
Revelation 20:14 (KJV 1900): And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Psalm 55:15 (KJV 1900): Let death seize upon them,
And let them go down quick into hell:
For wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Proverbs 5:5 (KJV 1900): Her feet go down to death;
Her steps take hold on hell.
2 Samuel 22:6 (KJV 1900): The sorrows of hell compassed me about;
The snares of death prevented me;
I found 13 verses with just the word death and hell in the same sentence.
How could you he experiencing death and not die? Also the Bible explicitly says that you will not EXPERIENCE death. You will legitimately die.
That is basically what my dad said, and I take that as a conformation, bc he had no clue that we just so happened to be having a debate on this. And also I had already been thinking about the thing with perpetual death, BEFORE he said that.
So, yes, death is apart of the torment in hell, but what we have to understand is that the second death does NOT mean that the person's soul or spirit cease to exist or go "unconscious". Because the Bible says that there will be ETERNAL torment, and that there will be NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for them. Now, you say that they will experience the eternal torment of death, but there's no way that they could eternally suffer death if they just cease to exist. So, what the second death really is, then, is a perpetual, continual death. They are constantly "dying" or experiencing death, but NOT ceasing to exist. It's eternal death. One of the meanings of that Greek word for "eternal" is "perpetual". Perpetual death, NOT death as in "ceasing to exist" or just "light's out".
Ok, BM, I got a confirmation today on this matter. My dad had no knowledge of this debate we are having, nor had anyone told him about it. But it just so happened that today, he said some things on this matter about hell while we were having a discussion on something not even related really. I'll basically give what he said in my own words, but I take it as conformation from the Lord that what I'm saying is indeed correct. So, plz consider what I'm about to say.
so we're talking about if hells eternal or not again!
Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900): For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yes they will have the same punishment/torment. Death.
BM, that same word for "eternal" used in Mat. 25:46 is used all throughout the Bible when it's talking about eternal life. So then does that mean that we won't actually live eternally? No, of course not. "Eternal judgement" (Heb 6:2) That means that each person will have the same judgement/destiny/sentence throughout eternity. The position of where they end up will never change. "Eternal redemption" (9:12) means that we will keep our redemption throughout eternity. And the same kind of thing applies for Matthew 25:46--the wicked will have the same punishment/torture throughout eternity. They will go through that torment forever.
Oops sorry I went a tad bit over two posts 😳
not that they are being redeemed eternally. Just that they have an eternal act of redemption.
Hebrews 9:12 (NKJV): Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Does that mean that God is eternally judging us? No. It is the eternal action of the judgement.
Hebrews 6:2 (KJV 1900): Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And about matthew 25:46. It says that "they" will go to eternal punishment(and torment). You could say that they are forever being punished by being burned and tourchered, but could it just be that the action is eternal? There are many verses just like this one that has an action (like punishment) that is eternal.
it does not say that the sould and body would eternally suffer, but that they are DESTROYED.
About Mat. 10:28: "Note, First, Hell is the destruction both of soul and body; NOT of the BEING of either, but the WELL-BEING of both; it is the ruin of the whole man; if the soul be lost, the body is lost too. They sinned together; the body was the soul's tempter to sin, and its tool in sin, and they must ETERNALLY SUFFER together."--Matthew Henry (emphasis added)
@BM, first of all, in Mat 25:46, I already showed you that "In all these places" (where that Greek word for torment is used) "it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does NOT mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer."--Albert Barnes. I think it's safe to say that he had a better knowledge of Greek than you do, BM, so that verse CANNOT just mean "eternal torment of death". Besides, that wouldn't even make sense if it did mean that, bc how can they be tormented eternally with death? If they die, as you say, how are they still TORMENTED for eternity by that AFTER they die? The definition of torment is "severe physical or mental suffering." How can that happen after they die? So, what you said makes no logical sense, based on all I have just shown you.
If heaven gives eternal life, then why doesn't hell give eternal death?
John 10:28 (KJV 1900): And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Matthew 10:28 (KJV 1900): And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Because the opposite of life is death.
No, not really BM 1, the Bible clearly says that Hell is eternal, answer this question, since Heaven is eternal, why wouldn’t Hell be eternal?
Ok here is what I have to say. The Bible scholars used the word "punishment" because they were eternally punished by death and would never be resurrected. But even if it did mean "torment" it still would mean the torment of death.
Yes, Micah, it was really depressing, especially at this particular time
Also, I was the one that changed the pic bc the one you had just done was so depressing...ugh 😓
Micah, the verse didn't just say torment. It said ETERNAL torment. Eternal means forever.
Roger is correct, Hell is eternal, read the Bible
Why aren’t those emojis allowed to be used during the debate Micah?
Also why did someone change the pic when I literally just changed it?
I believe there is some torment, but then you die.
@BM, "The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jn_4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer."--Albert Barnes
Sorry, that was to Micah.
No, we can't ignore those words, but we also cannot ignore other Scripture (context) that explicitly says that "they will go away to eternal torment". Eternal. That means it never ends. Torment. That means severe physical or mental suffering.
The Greek word Kolasis can mean punishment OR torment. Two different variations of the same word.
but you cannot ignore the words “second death” thatwould mean they would DIE right?
Also, I am definitely not always right, but I know that the Bible IS ALWAYS right, and here is what the Bible says. "Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Mat, 25:46) Now, the Greek word for punishment used here is κόλασις which means TORMENT. That is hardcore proof for eternal torment.
Micah, plz understand that I am not looking down my nose at you, and I'm not trying to be harsh with you, or judge you. On the contrary, I'm very concerned about you, bc I love you as a brother in Christ. 🙂
It’s kinda like putting people down like saying “why can’t you just understand this already?”
BM 2 I never said that. Read the last part of the group description that I edited last on Tuesday.
The bible clearly states that hell can destroy both body AND soul.
Matthew 10:28 (KJV 1900): And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Micah what rule says you can't ask questions?
Don’t break my rules Sethers. And I don’t get your question.
🤦♂️first of all, what verse says that Hell is eternal?
i read about the second DEATH and how the Bible says the wages of sin is DEATH not torture. Remember Roger, no one wants to listen to you when you say things like, “I’ll prove you wrong here” or “I can’t believe you were deceived”. It just shows what kind of spirit you have. Have a spirit of love, not the one you are having. Don’t act like you know everything please.
Micah, wow. I can not believe you got deceived into believing that hell is not eternal. 😕 What made you change your mind?
Ugh, I was writing a long comment, and then it all got erased 😥 that's frustrating. Anyway, the jist of what I was saying is I agree with BM 2. Also, that we are just going in circles right now with this debate and the only way your minds will be changed is when we are raptured pre Trib, I will meet you up in the clouds and I'll say "see? I told you it was pre Trib 😉" that'll be good
I believe they will get raptured post trib
so bm1 and Micah I am not saying Christians won't go thru hard ship, but I thought this was about if Christians would be raptured before or after the tribulation.
Micah; Yes Christians saved after the rapture will suffer persecution, when the mark of the beast comes, Christians will have to go into hiding but not all will make it, some will be brought to take the mark and rather chose to take the mark or die,but God will give Christians the strength to deny the mark.
And the great tribulation is part of the hardships of life. Righteous people of God have gone through tribulations multiple times, and just because this is the last one does not make it different from the others.
@roger, about your statement about lot. He was saved by God from destruction, but not tribulation. Lot had to live in a cave, and never had that city life he loved ever again.
Roger. what about when the apostles were being killed? were they saved? No! Neither will we. In this world we will have trouble. And we will have to deal with tribulation and persecution. we will even die for Jesus.
And I agree with BM 1 about the rapture
Just so you know I did some studying and do not believe in the eternity of hell anymore
sorry I'm kinda behind in the debate even tho I started it. 😂
God didn't just leave Lot and his family in the city while he was destroying it, and just protect them from it. He brought them out, the same way God will bring us out of this world before his wrath.
Actually, the Bible does show that. First, we will obviously have to go thru hardships, but not the Great Tribulation. With Noah, of course God didn't just take them off the earth, bc they needed to repopulate the earth after the flood. However, the ark symbolizes the rapture. Also, you forget that with Lot, he was taken out of the city BEFORE the destruction came. The city symbolizes the world, and the angels coming to get him and his family and bring them out, symbolizes the rapture, when the angels will come and get us and take us up to meet the Lord in the air.
God is not going to protect is from the real world. He gives us tribulation and won't just take us away from the world when times get hard. There are no Bible verses to prove that. What the Bible does say is that when God does pour out his wrath, it will only be on the wicked. We will have to go through all the tribulation of those days, but not the wrath of God. He will protect us!
Just like he could have taken Noah and his family from earth, saving them all the trauma, heartbreak, and pain from the flood. Not to mention those hundred years trying to convert people and making an ark when God could have just as easily have done it.
However, those who were ready when the Lord returned, they will not have to be on the earth for God's wrath. If you say he could just protect them from his wrath, then he could just as easily take them off the earth/rapture them.
BM, back to the debate--exactly, the wrath of God is only against the wicked. The ppl he protects during his wrath are those who got saved after the rapture or those who came back to the Lord after the rapture, and who didn't take the mark. They will still be on this earth while God's wrath is coming on the wicked, but as long as they are following the Lord, they will be protected.
Wow, that's really mysterious... 🤔and concerning 😕
😯 Oh... wow... do you have her email address, Charis? If you do, maybe you can email her
But it was really weird because she was hosting study calls last year and had the first one this year last week and the last thing I heard from her was she wasn't hosting anymore without any explanation
I'm hoping it's something like that? But she'll normally say when her mom tells her to leave things or she's taking a break for awhile....
Wow, that's really bizarre. 🤔...and disappointing. 😔 Do you think that her mother told her to leave all of her groups and her BB community hangouts? Do you know if she's still on BB at all? Or do you think she's just on some kind of social media fast? I have no idea. 🤷♂️ The last place I saw her was on Final Events SDA, where she was agreeing with me in the debate with Marilyn, and saying something to Janna...that was it. I know she still has her Bible Memory acc. bc she's still in the rankings.
😞 That's really, really odd! I'm definitely going to pray. 😢
Hey, about Nadia… idk why she left the groups on here but she also deleted her account on the Bible Bee community and left all the hangouts she was in…. I’m not sure what’s going on and it seemed kinda sudden so if y’all could pray for her :)
This verse shows that, when God's wrath is poured out, it only affects those who have the mark of the beast. People who are for the Lord are spared, and will not have any of God's wrath poured on them, like the Israelites in Egypt.
Revelation 16:1–2 (KJV 1900): And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
also people who are not saved that have heard the gospel before will realize they were wrong and accept the gospel
Where do you get that we will go through God's wrath?
Yes, we will go through trials (as seen in Matthew 24), but not God's wrath.
That is a story about Hid saving the lives of His people, but he did put them through tribulation. Noah preached day after day for over 100 years to get absolutely no conversions at all. They built an ark although God could just have easily made a giant shield around them, but instead He made them work tirelessly for years. God could have just made a shield around them, done the flood, and then sent them on their way without having to make a giant Ark. God is hiding to protect us through the tribulation, but he must also give us trials to strengthen our faith in Him, as well.
Also, this one: 2 Pet. 2: 5, 7-9: "if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)–if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment." That is clearly showing that those who are disgusted with this world and who are righteous, they will not have to suffer the destruction that God will bring upon the earth.
Yes, and remember, NOW is the time is God's favor; NOW is the day of salvation. I believe it probably will not be as easy for ppl to get saved during the GT.
However, those who are ready, who keep his commands, they will be taken out before God's wrath falls. If someone is already sold out for the Lord and they are not lukewarm, why would God have to send wrath against them? "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. I am coming soon." (Rev 3:10-11a)
Ok, so, BM, in response to what you said about the Christians being here for the Great Tribulation, it is true that there will need to be ppl like that. However, here is what I believe on that. There will definitely be a lot of Christians who will be left behind in the rapture, bc they were not ready. The parable of the ten virgins illustrates this. Only the Christians who are ready will go up. But the Christians who were lukewarm or not living for the Lord, they will have to be left behind and be forced to go to either side, like you said. Also, they will be the ones to witness to other ppl and help them come to the Lord in the Great Tribulation.
BM, I'll get back to you on the debate in the morning. Night night for now 😴
Yes 😂 cause I consider you all friends
You would be sad if I left 😱
I actually think that Nadia left Bible Bee: Witness, also. I'm really disappointed that she's no longer on, because it's not every day that we meet someone who believes almost exactly the same way we do. I mean, I would be sad if any one of you left, but Nadia...☹️
And the reason why God would give a tribulation to those who are going to go to heaven anyway is because, one, they need to convert people who would otherwise not be converted and, two, there are still some people who are close to coming to God, but are too comfortable with their life need a tribulation to push them forward.
Also I mean at Jesus' second coming will be the time that he resurrects the dead.
She suddenly lost all her verses for some reason.
😪 Yeah, I'm not sure exactly why, but I have my own idea why...☹️
Yeah, I don't know why, but I'm so sad. 😢 She's still on Bible Bee: Witness.
she didn't she just left most of her groups, don't know why.
Do you guys know why Nadia left the app?
yeah you still haven't responded.
Also, make sure you check Theological Debates (Overflow), plz 😉 I sent something to you over there. @BM 1
BM 1, the believers who are ready for the rapture are going to be taken out before the wrath of God comes upon the earth. Why in the world would God need to send wrath against ppl who are already living for him and are on fire for him? He would be punishing them for doing good! God doesn't "beat up" his bride and then marry her! 🤦♂️
That's doesn't make any sense. They have nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus. In fact, they are right in the context of the coming of Jesus! Also, if everyone had to go thru the great tribulation, then that would mean that all of the little children and babies would have to go thru it, and I think God knows that they wouldn't be able to handle that. That is why in the rapture, all of the children under the age of accountability will be taken up, along with every believer who is ready for the rapture.
just because the verse mentions it it doesn't mean that's what the main part is about.
I think the verse he is referring to is 1 Thess 1:10.
🤦♂️🤦♂️How in the world are the verses we gave references to Jesus resurrection?
Now I do see what verses you are trying to point out as proof of the Rapture, but they can all be shown as references to the resurrection of Jesus.
This is what Aventists believe. We will go through the tribulation and the seven trumpets will test us of our faith and separate the lambs and the goats. Basically the tribulation is going to make you either hot or cold, not lukewarm. Once everyone has made their decision God can finally come, and all the dead in Christ shall rise, and after the dead we will be caught up with them in the clouds.
Bible Memorizer I, plz don't miss all that we had said down below about the rapture
uhh, yeah, I think you changed it a bit
but I think there really good... wait did I change the subject... I would never do that!
and yeah, they probably had most of it correct
Roger plz check FC there's something there I want only you to see. 😂
no there not correct on everything but on most.
I can't remember if they are correct on all the theology, but the movie was really interesting! 😃
well I don't know if the movie is as good. but ok.
actually yes. I wanted to see what people would think what would happen at the rapture.
Yeah, I've read a few of the books, I think, but I have watched the movie
have any of you read the left behind series? it's a great example of what the rapture and tribulation is like.
Yes, BM 2 and Vera. And Jesus does show that we are taken out before his wrath. He compares His coming to Noah and the ark and Sodom and Gomorrah. In both of those instances, the righteous are removed and rescued before God's wrath comes on the wicked.
Micah, you can't just use your logic, you need to have Scripture to back it up
no, it does. It says that the bowls of wrath are poured out after the seven trumpets
hmm... If you would use the Bible Micah, and show us where to find it. but when you don't it just seems your using what you just think makes sense.
Unless you say that being saved from wrath is that, but his wrath is hell.
But there is no place in the Bible that says God will unleash his wrath on the earth after the rapture.
Ok listen to this logic. Why would God put all of humanity through wrath (except for the Christians) then when it is over “judge them” then throw them into his wrath again. It makes so much more sense that we would have to deal with persecution from the advisory. Then once we have been tried through fire, we would go up and then rule like it says in the Bible.
Then in 1 Cor 15:51-52, it says: "Listen, I tell you a MYSTERY: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (emphasis added) See? The last trumpet is the seventh of the seven trumpets. And they both speak of the mystery.
The Bible also says: "But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” (Rev 10:7) (And the seven trumpets happen BEFORE the bowls of wrath.)
Yes, of course we go through times of discipline, Bible Memorizer. That's understood, but we are NOT appointed to wrath. It's clearly stated it in the Bible, and you can't get around it. But that's not my only recourse.
Hebrews 12:6–7 (NKJV): receives.”
7 "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?"
2 Peter 2:5 and 7-9. talks about how God spared Noah from death, but that does not mean that Christian's will go through a final tribulation.
BM, plz also check Theological Debates (Overflow).
I see what you are trying to say, but all of those verses can easily be interpreted as when the resurrection occurs.
This verse really says it: "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. I am coming soon." (Rev 3:10-11a) He says he will keep the righteous from the hour of trial coming on the EARTH, and then right after, he says he is COMING SOON.
This passage explicitly shows that the destruction comes upon THE UNGODLY--NOT THE RIGHTEOUS. In fact, it says that the RIGHTEOUS WILL BE RESCUED. That is so explicit, you cannot refute it. All throughout Scripture it is clear that destruction and wrath is for the wicked and unrighteous, NOT godly, righteous ppl.
2 Pet. 2: 5, 7-9: "if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)–if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment."
🤦♂️That's the same thing that Micah said. If we are not appointed to wrath, that means no wrath. None. Not in hell, not on earth.
1 Thessolonians 5:10 says that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath. what I think he is talking about is being rescued and not exterminated in Hell.
Ok first, John 14:3 is talking about bringing us to heaven. I think we can all agree with that. However, He does not say when he will be taking us there. Seventh day Adventists believe that Jesus will come after the tribulation.
Thanks! I know, but I'm going to let her finish answering
Vera u got some answers from MarilynS
😂 Yes, I don't know why I thought it was 5:19
(Thank you for pointing that out, Bible Memorizer II, or I would've had everyone confuzzled)
it say quench not the spirit.
So it's 1 Thess 5:9, everyone! 😅 'twas a mistake
Oh! I don't know why it says 19; it's supposed to say 9... 😂🤦♀️
but 1 Thess 1:10 is correct.😂
oh yeah!😂 1 Thess. 5:19 doesn't even say that. 😂
and I was responding to the first one.😄
ok let's wait for bm to respond first tho to see why he believes this.
Whoops! I had to correct something in my comment, so I'm not sure which one you were responding to. 😅
I personally believe that we will be raptured around the time of the seventh trumpet in Revelation, right before the bowls of wrath are poured out. I have plenty of scriptural backing for that.
Also, Bible Memorizer I, the Bible says that we are not appointed to wrath. "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1Thess 5:19)
"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thess 1:10) I know you're going to say that this is talking about hell, but "wrath" is wrath--wrath on earth, wrath in hell.
look at John 14:3, where he says he will come again and receive you into himself that where he is there we may be also.(I said that a little differently than in the Bible)
to start out, would God break his promise to come back and take his children up with him?
Yes, bm, why do you think the rapture is a myth and Christians will stay during the tribulation?
But yes it is very likely that I will "twist the scripture to my on destruction, as I do the rest of the scriptures".
Sethers, it is not twisting the scripture. You could literally say that to anyone who has a different view. I am just sharing my perspective on things.
Unless he twist the scriptures to fit his beliefs like he did in our previous debate
What I’m curious about is what Biblical background does BM 1 have for there being no rapture, because I have some very clear verses about the rapture
I think it's very clear, Micah. But I would like to end this, too.
It’s not necessarily clear Roger. I suggest we end this debate. I know that there are still some active questions, but it’s better to end, it’s getting no where.
@Vera, I think that they are put in an unconscious sleep to never be resurrected again. It's like the first death, but the second death has no resurrection after it.
... you still didn't answer my question about the lights going out. 😊 plz?
Jesus added "all the detail" because, one, it brings the listener closer to the story and, two, because he could not make his point if the dead were sleeping in the grave. He had to make it as though they were talking and alive.
Also, as I asked down below, do you believe it's just "lights out" for the evildoers, then, after they're burned to ashes?
But why would He have added all the detail? He never just talked for the sake of hearing himself talk.
Yes. That even if Jesus brought the dead back to life they could not change Israel's evil ways. Jesus is trying to get a point across that the dead cant even change the ways of Israel. They had killed the prophets and were going to kill the son of God, as well.
🤦 could you kindly tell me what point He was trying to get across that He couldn't have gotten across any other way??
and no I do not believe in the Rapture.
Because this is a parable, not an actual story. Jesus is trying to get a point across.
Oh! Right! And, if these are all the wrong ones, do you have any better ones?? 😝 (And why aren't you getting involved? If it's because you're busy, couldn't you use the time you take in "coaching" us and Roger to give us the "right"verses? 😂
Also, I KNOW you say that this is just a parable to make a point. But why would Jesus, in the story of Lazuras and the rich man (Luke 16), have added the part about the rich man saying he was in agony in the fire?? It doesn't seem he was getting annihilated.
No I believe in a post-trib rapture remember Vera. And Sethers I agree with you guys, but the verses you are using are all the wrong ones 🤦♂️ 😂 I don’t want to get involved tho 🤐
So you think that it'll just be lights out?? That's so weird...
Ecc.12:5 says that man will "go to his eternal home". now personally I think he means the people going to heaven, but even if he is talking about the ones going to hell it still does not say they will be eternally tourchered or alive. Just that it will be their eternal home.
Oh! 🤦 I didn't see that you were talking to Bible Memorizer 🤦🤦
Yeah, Roger, Sethers, and I do, but not Micah.... we had a debate about that about two weeks ago... and Micah wiggled out 😏
bm do you believe in the rapture? cuz MarilynS thinks it's a myth.
(that's usually how any debate goes, as far as I know 🤷)
(pst, Bible Memorizer II, usually we go around in circles in these debates 😂, 'cause one or the other person doesn't want to answer a point given.)
guys this isn't going to change the persons mind about what they believe, if we are going to keep saying the same thing... well then.
Wait BM, isn’t torture and getting burned by the fire the same?
And I believe the second death is what Albert Barnes puts very simply and concisely: "John describes this as the second death, not because it in all respects resembles the first death, but because it has so many points of resemblance that it may be properly called “death.” Death, in any form, is the penalty of law; it is attended with pain; it cuts off from hope, from friends, from enjoyment; it subjects him who dies to a much-dreaded condition, and in all these respects it was proper to call the final condition of the wicked “death” - though it would still be true that the soul would live. There is no evidence that John meant to affirm that the second death would imply an extinction of “existence.” Death never does that; the word does not naturally and properly convey that idea."
Bible Memorizer, you still didn't answer the verse in Ecc: "Then man goes to his ETERNAL HOME, and mourners go about the streets." (Ecc. 12:5c)
The Greek word for "death" in this passage is θάνατος which means "sentenced to death" or "to die".
Jude 1:7 (KJV 1900): "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." They suffer the punishment of eternal fire, not that they are tourchered eternally. The Bible was very specific that they are now dead. Revelation 20:14 (NKJV): Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
@Sethers, I mean torture as in they are burned by the fire and die. Never to wake again
umm... Sethers I believe what you and Roger do about this, I just told you you were jumping out of the debate a bit.😉
Also, BM 1, plz don't miss what I said below. ⬇⬇ 😉
Hell is not a peaceful no torture place
Does he just torture them for a little bit and then say well, they don’t need to suffer anymore, they need some peace in Hell?
Ok then Micah and BM 1, when does the torture stop? why would God torture them for just a little bit and then not torture them anymore?
Roger you've missed quite a bit on my group.😬😂
We're not in the ground for eternity, so nope... it's talking about hell and heaven
No, he's not talking about the ground, bc the ground is NOT man's eternal home, or else that would mean there was no resurrection.
And Roger.... context plz. Ecclesiastes is a very down book. For all we know the author is talking about the ground!
No he doesn’t 😂 He believes there IS torture but it is not eternal!
No, he believes there is no torture BM 2
Sethers bm believes there's torture but not eternal torture in the message I was talking to you about you were going back to the beginning of the debate. and the question starting the debate was is hell eternal or not. so I think I know what I'm saying. 😂
Um BM, you said the fire is eternal but you will not burn eternally, don’t you know that fire burns you?🤦♂️😑😂
Yeah, I don’t know how you not believing what the Bible says🤦♂️
Also, this verse proves to you guys (Micah and BM) that ppl do not just sleep in the ground when they die. Ecclesiastes tells us what happens when ppl die. "Then man goes to his ETERNAL HOME and mourners go about the streets." (Ecc. 12:5c) Don't just say that they go to their eternal home later on. It's right at the time when they die--"when mourners go about the streets." That verse proves my point about no soul sleep, and it also proves my point in this debate. It's an ETERNAL HOME. They are there for eternity.
Also, in the verse that Vera gave it clearly says that they will suffer the punishment of eternal fire. That means they will suffer eternally in the eternal fire.
It says "their dead BODIES"! It's right in the verse!
🤦♂️that verse is talking about their bodies! Don't you know that ppl have bodies!?
in Isaiah 66:24 it says "And they shall go forth, and look
Upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me" The Hebrew definition of the word corpse meaning "lifeless".
Just because the fire is eternal does not mean you will burn eternally.
The fire is eternal, it is true. But it never says that you will suffer eternally.
And in Jude 1:7b it says: "They serve as an example of those who SUFFER the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE."
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;” (Mat 25:41)
Bible Memorizer, you are totally twisting Scripture. Why in the world would Jesus have had to say the phrase "eternal fire" if the ppl would not be burning forever? There would be no point whatsoever, except to blow hot air. "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the ETERNAL FIRE." (Matt 18:8)
Then prove it. It will not help if you say you are right and I'm wrong. If you can give me a legitimate verse that clearly states that people are tourchered forever I hell, I'll believe you.
🤦♂️🤦♂️Hell is eternal, heaven is eternal, if heaven wasn’t eternal then Hell wouldn’t be eternal, but guess what? they are both eternal, including the torment in Hell
Matthew 13:42 says that there will be a weeping and gnashing of teeth, but not eternally. it is a final, second death of the wicked.
And BM 1, it clearly says that there is torment there
And BM 1, what about my verse down there?
BM 2, it is about torture, not if Hell is eternal
And when it says that they will have no rest day or night does not mean that it is talking about being tourchered in hell. The Third Angel is speaking in this passage and telling what the unrighteous will go through if they do not accept God. They are saying that you will not be able to rest day or night, "he" shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever.
One key point is to realize that the torment of their SMOKE will ascend forever and ever. The passage does NOT say that THE WICKED will be tormented forever and ever. Rather, the wicked will be burnt up in fiery plagues, and it is their smoke — evidence that the fire has done its work — which ascends forever and ever. Smoke results from something burned. This indicates that they were consumed, and that all that remains is smoke. It also says in Malachi 4:3 that the ASHES of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. Psalm 37:20 tells us that the wicked shall “perish” — “into smoke they shall vanish away.” It is not the punishment of the fire, but the result of that punishment, which is being addressed in Revelation 14:11.
btw Sethers this is about if hell is eternal or not, nor t if there's torture.
Matthew 13:42 (NAS): and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. this clearly states that there is torture there BM 1 and Micah, if there was no torture, why would they be weeping and why would they be gnashing their teeth?
Micah with his long white beard and professor hat on...😂 and same as what Vera said
Micah, I don't get your point AT ALL 🤦 there's NO rest. Not rest in death; not rest in any break--no rest. So, not sure what you're trying to say 🤷
Well you guys don’t even believe that rest means death so 🤦♂️ that’s kinda hypocritical. Also Roger I will not charge you. It’s fun for me. You don’t HAVE to take my advice, but at least take the wise stuff and think about it plz.
Bible Memorizer, *ahem* you once again skirted around what Roger said about THERE IS NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for them. (Rev 14:11b) Plz respond. 😊
@Roger, I see what you are saying, but that does not prove that people are tourchered forever. what it says is that there is smoke of their torment that will rise forever, but says nothing about their torment going on forever. Just the smoke. From that we have come to two different conclusions and that is fine. Either one cannot prove the other conclusion incorrect.
bm please check the history of scripture typer.
Hey! 😒 When did I ever make you my debating coach, Micah? I'd better not get a bill in the mail from you when we're done 😅 I have my debating style, you have yours.
I'm not arguing against you, but there is a way to explain it, and if he does, find DIFFERENT proof, don't keep repeating yourself. He interprets it differently so try to find one that says your belief WORD. FOR. WORD. I'm like your debating coach now. "J
Also, why would it have to say that the smoke of their torment rises forever if the ppl weren't tortured forever? That would be pointless. It says right in the preceding verse that they will be tormented.
BM, it says THERE IS NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for them. You cannot just dance around that fact and avoid it.
Ummm, wait a minute. I never said we're done. We're just getting started.
😯 some fact checking. This guy goood.
Alright. But one thing about Mark 9:45 for explaining. It says that the worm does not die and I had no idea what that meant. Apparently Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 66:24 where the righteous look at the corpses of the dead. And it says that the worms that are inside their bodies do not die. I hope that explains your question. (:
ok this one should close soon you guys are just saying the same thing over and over again. 😂
@Sethers, it will not make me change my mind by saying that I'm wrong. if you can prove that I'm wrong it would be more helpful.😉
Revelation 14:11 (KJV 1900): "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." The Bible says that the SMOKE of their torment ascends forever and ever, not that they are tormented forever and ever.
Yeah, I totally understand him, the problem is he doesn’t understand what the Bible is saying
well he is going off a biblical stand point soooooo;
Roger it can be eternal punishment because you are dead forever. I am not on his side, but you have to think like him, not like you. And the way you are saying it is your INTERPRETATION. It can be taken both ways. It’s not just your interpretation that can be right. I agree with you, but I’m not getting involved in this debate 😂 except to help with your debating style 😂 jk, just remember to think in his way and TRY to understand where he is coming from.
Mark 9:48: "where “ ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’" eternal torture--says it right there
Also, how can annihilation be eternal punishment?? 🤔 It's not. Punishment in this case=torture
@BM I, a million of these🤦♂️ I said, the verse that shows the ppl will be tormented there forever also, is Rev 14:11: "And the smoke of their TORMENT rises for ever and ever. There is NO REST day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
@BM II, thanks. 😊 Yeah, I know that she is really strict about ppl getting into debates on there and being divisive, so I'm trying to be careful the way I say things. Btw, Micah made this group 😉
there have been several arguments with the group that didn't go well. and she tricks everyone into thinking what happened is the devil trying to trick people and blind them from the truth.😔
@ Roger I like the way you put what you said on the SDA group.👍🏻 but just be careful MarilynS does get angry fairly easily.
I agree with Roger and Sethers.
And cmon BM, think🤦♂️the beast and the false prophet, and the devil will be in Hell, along with everyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus
You still haven’t given us a verse that says Hell will be a nice place where no one is tortured, everyone would want to go to Hell if it was a nice place, no torture
And Matthew 25:46 says everlasting PUNISHMENT, not everlasting torture. They were punished to an everlasting death where no resurrection will bring them back. The Bible says that they are banished to the everlasting second death. And according to what Ecclesiastes clearly stated, the dead know nothing.
there are no people tormented forever in hell. just the beast, the false prophet, and the devil. I looked in vith KJV and NKJV and they both say that it is just those three. No more, no less.
Revelation 20:10 (KJV 1900): "where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
I agree! It CLEARLY says eternal...
Also, Matthew 25:46 explicitly says it, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Period. There is no question whatsoever. I do not know how in the world you could ever say that ECT is not mentioned in the Bible. 🤦♂️
Secondly, there are many verses in the Bible that say that there is eternal conscious torment. Just for starters, it says it right in Revelation that the beast and false prophet will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev 20:10) along with everyone who worships the beast (Rev 14:11).
Bible Memorizer, you are badly mistaken, I'm afraid. First, about the second death, I couldn't help but use Albert Barnes' very well said commentary on that passage. "John describes this as the second death, not because it in all respects resembles the first death, but because it has so many points of resemblance that it may be properly called “death.” Death, in any form, is the penalty of law; it is attended with pain; it cuts off from hope, from friends, from enjoyment; it subjects him who dies to a much-dreaded condition, and in all these respects it was proper to call the final condition of the wicked “death” - though it would still be true that the soul would live. There is no evidence that John meant to affirm that the second death would imply an extinction of “existence.” Death never does that; the word does not naturally and properly convey that idea." That is what I believe as well, and I don't think you can just say he was wrong.
It won't be the same without you! 😢
Nadia, 😢😢 our fellow debater, we will certainly miss you! Goodbye! 😪
meaning *come back to visit
We'll respond to the debate thing a little later... but, Nadia, *sniff* 😪 I'll miss you!!😢 You will come visit, right? ☹️ But if not, then au revoir! 👋
I am leaving most my groups now...bye xD
you can look at the posts from Alril 19 and onward to see what the posts were about on death.
that is...kind of...the definition of dying....um....
bm I know this isn't really my conversation but I don't think death literally means you die.
There is also no verse in the Bible that talks about people being tourchered forever there.
this is going to take a lot of explaining, but here is one verse that helps with it. Revelation 20:14 (KJV 1900): "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." The second DEATH. That is one main point that the Bible shows. When it says second death it is never specific what they mean, but according to my term of death from Ecclesiastes 9:5 from the Bible death is an unconscious in that you can feel nothing and are almost as if you are non-existent. The only way you re brought back is through a resurrection, and the Bible clearly shows that there is no resurrection after that. it also shows death and hell BOTH being cast down into the lake.
I agree, Sethers and Roger!
Yeah, it is a horrible place
May I please ask what Biblical backing you have for that? Bc it certainly doesn't seem biblical to me, and it contradicts Scripture.
yes I do believe that hell is eternal. however, I do not believe that people are tourchered there for eternity.
Ummm, well, rn Roger is trying to get Bible Memorizer I to respond to his question about eternal hell.
what are we talking about
Hey, BM, don't forget that I asked you a question down below, and I'd still like an answer, plz. 😉⬇️⬇️
Sethers, I am not always right. No person is always right. That's just a fact. And as Noah said, we must have an open mind. I understand that, but I also know that I need to guard my life and doctrine closely. I must guard my heart and not be swayed easily. If I am wrong and just not getting it, the Lord is very capable of showing me. I think the main issue is that we are led by the Spirit. A few years back, God took my family and I through a time where He revealed to us things in our lives that we needed to get rid of--things that we would have seen no problem with before, but now we were seeing that they were not holy and pleasing to the Lord. Not to try to pump us up or make us look more spiritual, because we're all at different places. But all that to say that if I am off, and I am supposed to read those books, God is very capable of showing me that, as long as I'm led by Him.
Noah, you're welcome! I hope that it helps. And if you have anymore questions, plz feel free to ask us. 😊
The only thing is that you have to have an open mind about your option. You can’t be to stuck in your beliefs not to hear what the other person is saying.
Sethers who doesn’t believe that there opinion is right? If you didn’t believe you’re opinion was right then you wouldn’t have an opinion.
Thx for your input guy. I will ponder what you have said.
Vera🤦♂️🤦♂️you always think your opinion is right, just listen to the truth, Narnia is not a bad book
Everybody, if you go onto Friendly Chats, you'll see what my reply is about Narnia and LOTR. Beyond that, I don't really care to continue debating about these books, because I know we're not going to change each other's minds.
Bible Memorizer, while you're here, I want to ask you a question: Do you believe that hell is eternal?
Yeah, BM, good points about Christianity.
Actually, I didn't mean about Narnia, too.
Bible Memorizer, those are great points about Christianity and faith!
Very correct Bible Memorizer!! couldn’t have said it better
@Noah. Sometimes it is hard to believe in an invisible
God that has not ever done any miraculous thing to prove himself and it just does not make any sense at all. Why? I think it is because if we could 100% prove that there was a God then people would not go to church because they wanted to learn about God, but because they didn't want to not go to heaven. The whole purpose of faith is believing in something you cannot see. And us Christian's have an ace up our sleeve. If were wrong, we lose nothing. But if were right, we win everything. If Athiests are right, they win nothing, but if they're wrong, they lose everything. There have been so many miracles on this earth that it is impossible not to at least try christianity.
I don't think that Narnia is a bad book. just because it has witches and demons does not mean that it is an evil book. The Bible has demons and witches, yet God wrote it. The real question is how those evil characters are represented. Narnia clearly depicts them as very evil.
Remember, God hears you, but I believe this is a test that you need to pass.
Also, Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
Btw, sorry if I don't respond right away. I have to go and do some things. But I really hope that I'll be able to help you
Noah, I understand. It is normal for young people to go through times when they doubt their faith. I know that what you are going through must be hard, but it's in times like these where we need to cling to Jesus more. I believe that you're going through a time of testing. James 1:2 says, "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance." But if you need proof that God is real, look around you. Look at the trees, the grass, the flowers; look at yourself. How did all this come into being?
When I’m stressed I don’t make much sense when I speak
Sorry if none of that makes any sense. Lol
I’ve prayed for 5 years to show some sing that’s he’s real, I’ve prayed for help with stuff and I’ve never gotten a response. And the hole thing just seems hard to believe, like some dude has been around forever he had no begging. How can you just believe that? Have you ever heard of the enneagram? If you have I’m a 5, if not just ignore what I just said. All that to say I think very literally. So if something dose not make 100% sense it’s really hard to believe. So that part of it.
First, what makes you doubt that God exists, if you don't mind my asking? Cause it will help me pinpoint where I should start. 😊
I will be glad to try to help you. I'm very sorry to hear that you have been going through that.
sorry, hadn't seen your last post
But I think we both can agree with what I just said two posts down, right?
This is off track but more important. How do you convince me that god is real? I’ve been going through a rough couple years. In which I have questioned my faith and if there is even a god. So I need some help...pls
Yes, I did not exactly mean it that way. What I was trying to convey is what I just said down below.
I think I need to make sure that I'm very clear, so plz excuse this third post. God is God. He is omnipotent, so that means He is all- powerful. No one gives Him power, and His power is always holy. And it is not magic. Saying it's magic would practically be saying it's of the devil.
I think you miss understood me. I was saying god dose not get his power though the holy sprit.
Then why did Jesus say that the Spirit of the Lord is upon Him? God is omnipotent. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one. They are both operating by the same power. I can't believe we are having to debate that...🤦
Also, in Luke 4:18 Jesus says, "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,"
I got to go eat dinner I’ll be back later
We get our power through the holy sprit but not god
This is all in the context of the Pharisees saying, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” (vs. 24)
"And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." (Matthew 12:27-28) And, "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (vs. 32)
This book is to show how even though we don’t always know what god is doing he has a plan
The Bible would not tell us to do something that's impossible to do. I'll give you verses on the Holy Spirit thing
That’s what I thought but I was just curious
ummm, yeah, but there are plenty of other things we can think about and read and watch that are wholesome and God honoring.
Where do you get that gods power comes from the holy sprit?
Magic is by the devil's power. So it is EXTREMELY critical that we not mix them up.
Ok but in this world it’s not all butterflies and rainbows we can’t always think about good stuff it’s broken in this world there is nothing we can do about that
Ummm, no. God's power is through the Holy Spirit. It's NOT magic at all
Sorry my thing is a little laggy
This a little different then what we where talking about. But can gods power be called good magic? Or what would you call it?
Please see the verses below ⬇️⬇️
Noah, did you see the verses Vera gave?
It paints a different picture that way
Cause it’s completely different. They can but they can also do it with different creatures and magic and stuff
And 1 Tim 4:7 says, "Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly."
Philippians 4:8 says, "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
You can get a point across without having to use witchcraft. Jesus did. They can do it.
.... what's the difference? if it's not ok for us to PRACTICE it, how do you justify IMAGINING it??
Witchcraft is not ok. Period. And you cannot compare Narnia and Lord of the Rings to Jesus parables.
None of his parables had which craft but they where story’s to get points a cross
And in Galatians 5:20, it says that witchcraft is an act of the sinful nature.
It says he who practices magic. Not he who imagines magic to get a point across
Rev 21:8 and Rev 22:15 say that those who practice magic arts will not enter the kingdom of heaven and will have their place in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Hold on, hold on. Um....can you guys plz tell me which of Jesus parables had witchcraft in them? 🤔
I know that sethers, but this guy was a good Christian. That’s the only reason I’m backing him up.
And Noah, most Christians today live and act as though Jesus Christ is dead so don’t think that every Christian who writes a book is good
I think Narnia isn’t bad, not Harry Potter is bad, just like the parables, they use it to explain something, Harry Potter is just evil
We still have to do our part to test it against the Bible. And, I'm sorry, but it certainly doesn't seem holy to me
Noah, just because the person who wrote it was a Christian doesn't mean it's pure and holy.
You know that those books where written by a Christian and it was a story to show how god worked. It was like Jesus parables. This was not to make you believe in demons and demonic stuff. When I have more time I will go into more details on what I mean and the correlations with god and satin
Um, I don't think the stuff in Narnia is representing God's power. As far as I know, Narnia has witches and demonic characters in it. That stuff cannot represent God's power. If you want to read about God's power, just read the Bible, or true stories of what he's done, not some evil fictional thing.
So, not even things like Narnia where magic is representing God’s power?
Yeah, were not just talking about fiction and make believe, we're talking about magic and fantasy. I don't think that magic is ok at all, bc magic is basically witchcraft.
But things like video games and movies can get us addicted really quickly, so we need to be careful
as long as make believe does not take over our reality and become an idol, it is safe.
Jesus used make believe stories all the time(parables).
😄 I knew that you believed the same way, Nadia...I saw that Harry Potter debate you had had a while back
Exactly what Ver said.:D xD
I think we're talking about fantasy and magic in general. I don't think it's good to fill our minds with things like that. A lot of that comes from the devil. Imo, it's his counterfeit of heavenly things.
Fantasy is fun to read, as long as it’s not thought as reality.... I’m guessing that you aren’t talking about books tho...?
Yeah, but it's this what everyone wants to debate about?
y’all should still state where you guys stand on it 😁 I think I know but... ya know just to be sure xD
😂 I'm like 99% sure everyone knows where Roger and I stand on it.
Sure, I think everyone knows where I stand on this😂
Noah, that is actually a really good topic! What does everyone else think?
Magic and fantasy and stuff like that
🤦♂️I don't agree, but it's kind of a trivial matter, so let's just pick another topic.
🤦♂️ Roger. Like people pointing up or saying that God is above us? Its an expression. 😒
I agree that if everyone believes that there is hell then we’re good
But I don't really think this is an extremely important topic to debate. As long as we all believe that there is an eternal hell, and that unbelievers will go there, that's really all that matters on this topic, I think. But I do still think there is Biblical proof it's in the earth. Even if you don't want to use that last verse Roger gave, all the rest point to what we're saying.
Actually, Sethers, it's talking about Jesus going down to Sheol to preach to the righteous dead in "Abraham's bosom". (Eph 4:7-10)
And Roger, Matthew 12:40 has nothing to with Hell, it’s talking about God being buried
It literally doesn’t even matter where Hell is, Hell is going to be where it is
I agree with Micah and Noah
Mat. 12:40: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." It's all over Scripture. You've just gotta look.
Psalm 63:9: "They who seek my life will be destroyed; they will go down to the depths of the earth."
Also, one of the proofs I have that hell is inside the earth is that, several times when the Bible is referring to hell, it says, "under the earth." (Php 2:10, Rev 5:3,13)
No, when they are thrown into the lake of fire, they are not annihilated, but they are tormented there. And hell is not the lake of fire, bc it says that death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14) They are not the same thing.
And isn’t hell the lake of fire?
But you said they suffer forever. If earth is destroyed, wouldn’t they be too?
I believe that hell is inside the earth, too. And when it says that hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, I believe that's when the earth will be destroyed also, bc hell is inside the earth.
But this earth is going to fade a way and be destroyed
I personally believe it's inside the earth... and I do have scriptural reason for that belief
Hell is where hell is. God knows, we don’t. There is no location! All we know is where we are and a little (very little) about space. For all we know (and it very well might be) it could be in a different dimension!
Um...maybe we could do a debate on where hell is located?? Just an idea, but if Bible Memorizer I were here, he might have some better ideas. 😜 I wonder where he went anyway. 🤔
Micah! That's a brilliant idea! Sooo helpful! 😜
So, anyone have an idea for a new debate topic? 😉
... I'm saying that assuming you've watched that episode before...
😱 Poor Noah! 😬 Reminds me of Beaver on "Leave It To Beaver".
Oh my goodness! 😱🙊🙈 I feel embarrassed for him! 😂😅
I get my haircut at... more like, not at home.
And then he had to go up in front of the church the next day.
Ya know Noah the guy who’s my brother.... while my mom tried cutting his hair once. He ended up bald. Literally.
I don't think I'd look good with long hair...😅😂
I was going to get a haircut last year, then all the barber shops closed because of covid. An at-home haircut also didn’t go too well, 😂 so I just let my hair grow. I might get a haircut when school is in-person bc now it’s down to my shoulders, though I kind of like it now. 😅
@Henry same! Lol I’ve been growing my hair out for awhile now, we just go to a salon. My mom tried to cut my hair once 😑 it didn’t go so well
😆 You all just reminded me that I haven’t had gotten a haircut since Nov 2019… 😅
eeek trims not trumps *facepalm* autocorrect.....
Wellllllllllllllllll.....my mom cuts my dad and brother's hair whenever it gets too big people start asking if they perm it....anddd she trumps my hair every few months whenever I get split ends....I cut my brother's hair...once......lets just say that...um....I was like 6 and....it didn't go so well..
😂 Well then you have it quite a bit easier. 😂
I'm not good at it but I wouldn't say it's hard since he always says he just wants it shorter and doesn't really care what it looks like.... 😆
(This is a great "debate", btw.) 🤣🤣
Neat! My dad cuts my, mom's, sisters', and my hair every 3 weeks or so.
my mom cuts our hair. about once a month like you guys.
Oh, that's interesting! Do you find it hard, or not really?
I cut my brother’s hair and my mom cuts everyone else’s hair 😂
And I cut my dad's hair. 😄 It's ironic, bc when I was a little girl, I wanted to be a hairdresser. And now, here I am, giving haircuts, but I'm not too crazy about it. I mean, it's ok, but...
😅 We do our haircuts at home...about once every month...helps to save a lot of money. 😉
They budgeted it but I don’t wanna have a haircut yet.
No, not until like a week
oh! I know! He's probably getting a haircut rn. 😂
So, you finally got your haircut? 😂 But I thought you've already had that pfp before...🤔
Then tell us that and don’t delete them 😂 I AM in charge of this group u know...
😬uh...there were three...the two that Sethers posted about Biden, and then what you said in response...😬 I didn't want to have another banter about politics...
🤦♂️How in the world did you start talking about politics? This was supposed to be about predestination. 🤦♂️Let's not get going with the politics again...🙄
Yes, God did know what was going to happen, and whatever😂Biden is not cool at all
🙄🤦 Not THAT kind of election. 😂 But, yes, ultimately, God did know that was going to happen, all along.
So Biden was in God’s plan? Then stop grumbling about the election! 😂
And we cannot forget that God has given man a free will. He did not create a bunch of robots that do exactly what has been programmed into them. It is certainly possible to drift away and shrink back. This means we must put our faith in Jesus, we must MAKE OUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE (2 Pet. 1:10), we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil 2:12) (Btw, these things were adapted from my dad's article on predestination)
So, I believe that election is based on God’s gracious choice. (Rom 11:5-7) The elect were known beforehand and destined beforehand, which is called predestination. (Rom 8:29-30) God’s purpose in choosing the elect was that they go and bear fruit that would remain, that the Father would give them whatever they ask in Jesus’ Name, that the elect be conformed to the image of His Son, and to make his glory known upon the vessels of His mercy. Obviously, God does not want any to perish, Jesus is the Savior to all who believe, and the gospel is for everyone who will listen. But while many are called, few are chosen. (Mat 22:14)
Ok, so I know that Nadia had suggested we do a debate on predestination, but...the thing is that we would probably all just be debating against Sethers...again. 😅 And I know he doesn't like that, soo...I'll just briefly state where Vera and I stand on this, and then anyone can feel free to comment about it. K? 😉
😜 He sure did... oh well...
Yeah. Btw, Micah, you very conveniently wiggled your way out of that rapture debate, huh? 🤔😆
I don’t, but I agree with the letter of Rogers statement.
Yeah, Sethers, I agree with you...But, we've gone over this sooo many times...🙄🤦♂️...we'd better not get started again...😅
How come COVID has cured the flue? how come it has cured coconuts falling on peoples heads?😂 how come it has cured car accidents, and don’t tell me this isn’t true because my friend died in a car accident and they called it a COVID death🤦♂️
And Micah, if you look at true statistics, the miscarriages have sky rocketed after the COVID vax came out
Micah, I didn’t say that all vaccines are bad, we haven’t gotten any of them and we are perfectly healthy, in fact, my sister got the flue vaccine because she worked in a hospital and got the flue🤦♂️so you never know
The covid 19 vaccine has proven that it does not cause baby deaths! Did you know that one in four births is a miscarriage😔? So it would make sense that people who got the covid vaccine then got pregnant had a miscarriage! Actually, one in four, 25% would! That would look pretty significant.... if it wasn’t normal.
Umm... Vera. Vaccines in general are not bad! My mom has gotten vaccines ALL her life! Through her childhood and teen years, then when she was a adult. So did her mom! Her mom had 3 Children and is very healthy for her age. She is still living independently at 80 years old! And my mom had 6 kids! She is also very healthy!
But um *ahem*, yeah, we think vaccines in general are bad, and are apart of the population control. (Buuut...I don't exactly want to get into a debate about that, bc we've had like...*counts on fingers*...three or four so far about the Covid vax.) If you don't believe me, just watch "Vaxxed 1" and "The People's Truth". (Warning: make sure that if you do get Vaxxed 1, you request a "clean" copy. Cause, for some reason, the normal one has bad language and stuff like that in it. 😬)
Bible Memorizer, you're stopping the subject sentence reminds me of the little squeaking noise that happens on videos when there's an interruption to music or something 😂 (that's the only way I could describe it, in the hopes that you would know what I'm talking about.)
COVID vaccine=population control
No, I think the COVID one kills people though
what stoping the subject. you think vaccines are evil?
But it will be a horrible time for the non believers🙁
Yeah, won't it be great to be able to rule and reign with Jesus? 😃 Then we'll be able to repeal all the horrible laws and make all the evil stuff illegal, like abortion, LGBTQ, chemtrails, vaccines, etc.
Good 😂 I KNOW! Seriously! And some Christians think that we can have the millennium BEFORE Jesus returns. 🤔
Yeah, now I do😂I don’t know how people could say it’s not true because the Bible specifically says that it will happen
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ after the GT, when the devil will be locked up in the bottomless pit, and we will rule and reign with Christ. (Rev 20) Remember? 😉
I forgot, what is the millennium?
Yes, we do believe in the millennium. 😄
Well, it's talking about all of God's wrath, including the great trib. But, yeah, I do believe in the millennial kingdom and that we will rule and reign with Christ. 😊
Yes but I believe that is talking about hell. I do think that our beliefs are closer then you think tho, you do believe in the millennial kingdom that we rule aside God right?
In fact, in Romans 1:18, it says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness," So, the wrath of God is for the wicked, NOT the righteous. It says it right there.
Sethers and Vera, you're right. Micah, we're not just those ppl who think that we will be whisked out of here before any hardships or persecutions come. No. We will have to go thru some hard stuff (remember, all the seals and trumpets, which includes martyrdom in the fifth seal). But in terms of God's wrath/bowls of wrath in Rev, that, we will not have to go thru. That is for the wicked, not the bride.
Then, Micah, what do you say about the verses speaking of the mystery of God being revealed when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet? I do believe, as I have already said, that we will have to go through hardships and persecution. That stuff happens before and during the great tribulation. So the persecutions talked about in Matthew 24 we will have to go through. But we won't have to suffer God's wrath.
I read it, it does say that Micah, but remember not to take 1 passage or verse and just use only that one and not look at all of scripture
No that was saying how we are saved. Sethers read Matthew 24, it plainly says that we will be persecuted, even killed! That sounds like tribulation! We are not going to be spared from that!
I agree with Roger and Vera
Micah, if we are saved then why would God need to save us from Hell?
Micah, 🤦♂️ it says he's coming to rescue us from the coming wrath. It wouldn't mean hell in that verse, bc Jesus already came to rescue us from hell. He wouldn't do that again, so it has to mean something different...the great tribulation
Coming wrath also = God's wrath on the wicked during the great Trib. We are not appointed to wrath. Period. NO WRATH. Not here on earth; not in hell. None. Zero. Nilch. Nada.
Micah, here is another verse that supports a pre-trib rapture. "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead–Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thes 1:10) So, it clearly says that we are waiting for Jesus to come from heaven to RESCUE US FROM THE COMING WRATH. That's pretty plain and simple.
Yes. Keep in mind, Micah, that I believe the rapture happens around the seventh trumpet. There is a lot of bad stuff that happens before that, that I believe we will have to go thru. But, what we won't have to go thru is God's wrath, which is the seven bowls of wrath mentioned in Revelation.
I've read it many times, but I just read it again... is there any particular part you wanted to point out? Bc I do believe we will have to endure some hard times before Jesus' return, but I DON'T believe we'll suffer God's wrath.
I'm not gonna let you off the hook that easily, Micah. 😝 Don't think you can just wiggle your way out of this one. 😂
Bc we were right in the middle of the debate. 😂 We're not done yet, Micah. 🙄😊
Ok, let's resume, shall we? 😅
You're not stupid. Everyone can get confused. 😅 But do you know what we are talking about now?
I am so stupid. I thought we were talking about something else 🤦♂️
Enh? 🤨 Ummm...I didn't quite comprehend what you just said there, Micah. 😅
Wait, I be confused 🤦♂️ this is what we r talking about 🤦♂️ 🤦♂️ 🤦♂️
Here is the scriptural backing you asked for. Jesus compared the rapture to the days of Noah and the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Both Noah and Lot were saved BEFORE the destruction came. And the wicked were left behind and destroyed. Check out Luke 17:26-35. I will give a verse from the end of that that shows that the righteous will be taken and the wicked left. "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left." (Luke 17:34-35)
About ppl being saved after the rapture, I do believe that that will be possible, but it may be much harder.
Also, how can you say that the verses we have back up what you believe? Bc we were specifically showing that the rapture happens around the time that the 7th trumpet is blown. Plz go back and read that part of the debate.
🤦Micah, first of all, not everything that is bad happens because God is beating ppl up. That's not what we're saying. God's wrath is for the wicked, not for the bride of Christ.
@Roger 😔 u changed it back
You think God is beating up people? 😐 Wow. Bad things happen cuz God beats them up? Not even. Mh scriptural backing is yours. I would like a verse that specifically says that God will take us away from the earth before really bad stuff happens. Alos one that says how the corrupt people will stay here. How does that work even? Can they not believe Christ after that?
I had said God isn't gonna beat up his bride and then marry her. 😂 Where is all your Scriptural backing for your belief?
Micah, how about we get back to the debate, huh? 😉
uhhh, yeah. 🙄 You're gonna keep it like that? 😬
I agree Roger. And yeah, what's up here, Micah? 😂
I wonder if Nadia has been messin' around with the group again. 😂 It was probably Micah.
And what's with the new name and stuff? 🤔🤨
Sethers, you're right that God has not appointed us to wrath. Micah, God isn't gonna beat up his bride and then marry her. 😂 Where is all your Scriptural backing for that belief?
God has not appointed his children to wrath, the only wrath of God is the tribulation
Hmm... there is no verse in the Bible that says that Micah
That Jesus will come after the trib. and we will be reunited and live eternally.
Well, what IS your belief?
Um, so? That verse proves MY point.
Btw, what is your opinion anyway? All you said was that you don't agree with us about the pre-trib rapture, but what do you believe about it?
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” John 14:3
Actually, I did give some Scriptures for that, but we're not bringing that one back up again. I want to know what Scriptures you have to prove your point in THIS debate. Especially since it's a more important matter than "who wrote Hebrews".
So what is your opinion about Paul writing Hebrews?
We need to have beliefs that line up with the Bible. Not just opinions that have no scriptural backing.
Um, Micah. You need Scriptural backing for your "opinion". Where is it?
I agree with Roger and Vera
Micah, show me some verses that back up your opinion
Hmm...that sounds like the rapture. 🤔 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thes. 4:16-17) See? It's talking about the rapture, and the dead in Christ rise right before that.
🤔 at the last trumpet the DEAD will be raised imperishable... hmm what does that sound like 🤔
Now look at what it says in Revelation 10: 7, "But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” Again, it calls it the MYSTERY, and it clearly says it will be at the LAST/SEVENTH TRUMPET.
1 Cor. 15:51-52 says, "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." It says AT THE LAST TRUMPET, and it calls the rapture a MYSTERY.
Well, as I said, I have more scriptural backing
Now, Micah. That verse is right in the context of the rapture. I do believe we'll have to go thru some persecutions and hardships before the rapture, but we won't have to suffer God's wrath being poured out in the Great Trib.
I think that we have to live in the severe persecution.
I believe that specific verse is talking about hell. That’s God’s wrath. He gave us eternal life, instead of hell.
Now, what do you believe in Micah?
And I have more strong Scriptural backing. 😉
Now, don't get me wrong. I think that things will get pretty bad before the rapture. But I believe we will get raptured BEFORE the bowls of wrath.
Um, yeah, actually. "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1Thess 5:19) If we had to go through the GT, we would be experiencing God's wrath.
I asked my question first 😏
Any biblical backup for a pre trib rapture?
*if that's what you meant by backup
Well, you'll get plenty of backup from Vera and me. 😂
Same about the rapture, just need some backup
😂 Yeah, that was a hit. I, of course, believe the same as Roger about the rapture.
...hmmm, that got a big reaction 😅....I'm curious: what's everyone's view on the rapture? I believe in a pre-trib rapture, btw. 😉 I believe it happens some time around the seventh trumpet in Revelation and before the bowls of wrath.
It reminds me of Mat. 11:25: "At that time Jesus said, 'I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.'"
Hey, guys, I just wanted to share this video with you. It's about a 7-year old boy who had a rapture dream. He is so cute and precious and his dream is very interesting! 😊 Plz check it out: https://youtu.be/M1tDHD6W198
Yeah, whatever. 🙄🤦♂️ I still think it was Paul, but it's ok if you think differently. Ig we'll just find out who wrote it when we get to heaven. 😁
But he ALWAYS pointed himself out and had basically the same intro/ending.
Yeah. And besides, Paul didn't always point out his scribe in his other letters.
Probably cause he just decided not to do that. Another thing that makes it seem like Paul wrote it was that he said to pray that he would be restored to them soon. (13:19) He used similar wording in Philemon (v. 21).
Roger and Vera, one question. If it were really Paul who wrote it, why would he not start and end it how he usually did? Why would he not point out his scribe? Why wouldn’t he say his name like he did in his other letters?
Oh, yeah! There's Jn 15:6. 😅 ... and Matt 18:15-35...
You're welcome, Nadia. Glad to help! 😀
Haha, no @Roger: Someone is just curious of what I believe so I want my backing from scripture and I couldn't remember where all the verses were.....hehe...Thanks for much tho!!!!
2 Peter 3:17; 1 Cor 10:12; 1 Tim 4:1; 1 Tim 5:8 (Sorry, these are all kinda miscellaneous, but I hope they still help.) 😄
And also all the apostasy parables in Luke 15.
Rev 3:5 This one shows that it is possible for one's name to be blotted out of the book of Life.
Rev 3:1-3, 15-17; 1 Tim 1:19; 5:15; 6:10, 21; Heb 6:4-6
Hope those help! 😁 Are you debating on one of the other groups, or....?
Okay, Nadia, here are a bunch. Gal 5:4; James 5:19-20; 2 Pet, 2:20-22; Col 1:21-23; Rom 11:22; Rev 2:4-5; 1 Cor. 9:27; 1 Cor 5:1-2
Okay, there are many, but I'll give you as many as I can remember.
(I do not believe in predestination)
We could do predestination if we haven't already
Um, Hey Vera and Roger.....can you give me again all the verses that "contradict" Once saved always saved? Someone is debating me and I can't scroll thru all that again and find it hehe
So... any other ideas? My mind's drawing a blank rn.
Yeah, I know. We just wanted to see what everyone else thought and give the reasons why we think it's Paul. I'm not dogmatic about it. 😅 But I think everyone who wanted to say something has said it, now.
Idk, it really doesn’t matter tho guys, all that matters is Christ and what he did for us
Yeah, well, I guess it's just a matter of opinion. 😅 I tend to think it was Paul, tho.
also, we have no idea when Timothy was imprisoned
but the writing style is completely different. that should mean a lot
Looks like someone is tracking my movements. 😏 Anyway, ok, so I believe it's Paul bc for one, he kind of writes in a similar style to Paul. Also, he says, "I want you to know that our brother Timothy has been released. If he arrives soon, I will come with him to see you." (13:23) Also, in v. 24 he says, "Those from Italy send you their greetings." So, as you know, Paul was in prison in Rome, and at one point, Timothy must have been imprisoned with him there in Rome, bc it says it in the verse that he had been released. Who would have been the most likely person to know that but Paul, who was in prison himself! Also, Paul and Timothy were very close to each other, as you know. So, those are my reasons why I think Paul wrote Hebrews, but you can disagree if you want. 😁
He's getting on the computer and...
I know that, but we have reason to believe it was Paul... if Roger would just get done with what he's doing, he could respond... ooh I think he might be done now. 😏 Hang on, and I think you'll get a response soon.
to jumpstart this conversation, some potential authors include Apollos and Barnabas
Who do you think wrote it then?
I’m not sure, it doesn’t really seem his style. It’s written differently from the other books.
So, here it is: who was the writer of Hebrews? I believe it was Paul and I have reasons for thinking that, but that's for the debate 😉
Ok, let's get the wheels a rollin' and the plates a spinning here again, so to speak. 😂 I can see Micah has tuned-out for this particular discussion, so let's start a new topic, and I have a great idea for one, so don't sweat it. 😅
Yeah, Nadia, I saw that story. That was really amazing and hilarious at the same time. 🤣😂😂
Btw, anyone who wants to join in, we're having a bit of a debate on the overflow message wall.
I once had a dream where I was in a room, and angels were walking around me. Every time they went in front of or beside me, I would feel a wonderful weight and fall backwards. 😃
Oh, yeah, I saw that! 😂 That was neat!
I've had dreams like that...I think I told y'all about my interesting dream/vision coming out of anesthesia and freaking the nurses out😂
Anyway, speaking of supernatural encounters, one time, back when I was nine, I saw Jesus in a dream. In the dream, I was talking with my younger brother about the crucifixion of Jesus, and was actually seeing it happening as I was talking. Then I saw Jesus standing there. When I looked at Jesus, he had his arms outstretched and I saw the nail marks in his hands. I can’t really remember what his face looked like, but he was wearing a white robe with a soft gleam to it. I was then telling my brother how Jesus died out of love for us, and not because he did anything wrong. All of a sudden, I broke down sobbing and ran toward Jesus and hugged him. That was a really interesting dream, and I can still remember it. 😁
Yes, you're right, Charis. The Greek word for that cannot mean ghost. Micah, I'm pretty sure that they thought it was his guardian angel. Also, another verse that shows that we have personal guardian angels is Matthew 18:10: "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that THEIR angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven." See? He referred to the CHILDREN'S angels. "their angels"
I don’t think they meant ghost since there are 2 completely different Greek words for ghost and angel and they use the GW for angel in that passage
Ik they have names, just that angel that they said was “Peters angel” I think they meant ghost. It makes much more sense because why would Peters angel be knocking on the door? just a idea
And about the names, we know that angles have names. Remember Gabriel? Michael? And before satan fell, his name was Lucifer. And if the STARS even have names (Ps 147:4), then surely the angels have names, too!
"When she recognized Peter’s voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, 'Peter is at the door!' 'You’re out of your mind,' they told her. When she kept insisting that it was so, they said, 'IT MUST BE HIS ANGEL.'" (Acts 12:14-15) See? Peter had his own personal angel, and they knew that.
hmm... could you maybe points out where it talks about this in thee Bible?
Actually, I think we do have personal guardian angels, and they do have names.
Like I got “angel joe” watching out for me boi.
But not PERSONAL guardian angels I meant.
Yes, definitely. 😁 And as the NIV says "to guard you in all of your ways" That's talking about guardian angels.
Actually a better one would be, "For he shall give his angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways." (Ps 91:11)
Yeah, and, Micah, all believers have guardian angels bc it says it in the Bible. "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14)
Those are amazing stories, Nadia and Micah! 😀 Yeah, they don't always have to be gaurdian angels. There are many different types of angels.
It’s pretty amazing how God does that, God shows up when we need him
I think that is possible of course
Yah, probably, but I think that there are not really “guardian angels” for every person.
Yep, and those are probably angels! 😄 That's so neat!
Hmm 🤔👌 Yah someone on my church had a weird guy walk up to her when she was about to cross the street. He helped her cross the street then disappeared.
LIke once my mom was a t a store, and there was this guy who said his name was Joshua and he had a shopping list but it had nothing on it...and he started talking to my mom about spiritual things and bible verses and explaining them to her, and she felt the presence of God (and ofc started crying....) and then the guy dissapeard @_@
We've had STRANGE experiences with "people" who later we were left like "Was that a person or......."
So ppl can definitely see angels....without getting so overcome with glory that they can't stand...or else those ppl wouldn't have been able to entertain angels WITHOUT REALIZING IT. 😁
Actually, we started talking about the gems from heaven, then you said that there's no possible way for anyone to see angels, and while we were refuting that, you all of a sudden brought up ppl going to hell. And I was like where did that come from? So don't say I brought that up. 😄
Yes there is, always show hospitality to everybody
I started saying that there was no possible way to see angels, and then you guys carried it on
Very correct Micah, well said
There is actually a verse in the Bible that says, "And do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." (Heb 13:2)
Can you please tell me how we started talking about angels?
🤦♀️🤦♀️ Listen, you guys, you can disagree. I'm not going to try and argue this point. But the fact is, we're getting waaay off topic.
I think God can show people hell, but if they actually go to hell, there is no going back. Remember tho, even if unbelievers did die, they wouldn’t go t9 hell because they would have to be judged first.
I am going to disagree with you guys
Vera, how is telling people that you went to hell going to damage to satans kingdom, no one cares
I TOTALLY agree with you, Nadia and Vera! 😊
And if that ever happens don't do what we did and throw every single thing that COULD be 'bad" out cuz then you'll end up with nothing in your house....xD
Oh, and you most certainly do not want your spiritual eyes open if you have something that opens the door for demons spirits in your house....trust me......
Absolutely, Nadia!! on both counts
That's a great testimony, Vera and Roger!
I have no idea who Benny tin or whatever his name is lol and if anyone is charging money to "heal" they are most likely a fake
woah woah woah you can most certainly see angels and demon spirits!
Then, about hell, I do definitely believe that ppl have been shown hell and then come back. (My family and I actually met a man from Nigeria who died for I think twenty-four hours, was taken to hell, and came back. We have certified that he's speaking the truth. And he's NOT just doing this for publicity sake. You can scoff all you want at that, but we know he's not lying. And btw, we don't just swallow every testimony about hell that comes down the pike, if that's what you're thinking.) But I do know that with some, even after they are shown hell, they still stray from the Lord. You know why? Because the devil knows that now that they have that information, they can really do damage to his kingdom by telling ppl. So he targets them and tries to bring them down. But if they fall and end up in hell, oh my! (Luke 12:47-48)
Might I ask how in the world we started talking about angels, so that I can more accurately answer your statements? Cuz I'm not entirely sure why y'all brought that into the discussion, and what Micah means by 'in their spiritual form'. 🤔
Ok, so I have several things to say, so bear with me please. 😊
I agree with Sethers and Micah for this one.
Vera and Roger, when people in the Bible saw angles they couldn't even stand them and turned away.
Yah. They probably are just faking it for publicity 🤦♂️ but that would be super freaky 😬 if God’s like, I’m going to give him a vision of hell cuz he’s getting off track. That’s would be scary.
All I hear about is people claiming that God brought them down to hell and yet when they “comeback” they live as though hell isn’t real. if someone saw that I’m sure it would change them
No, in their regular form. Same with everything from heaven.
Yeah, Sethers. Saying that is just crazy!! 😱
You can't tell me there's no way...😂
Of course there is! Abraham saw angels with his physical eyes (Gen 18, I think), Samson's parents did (Judges 13), ummm, let's see, the women at the tomb saw them (Luke 24)... the disciples (Acts 1). And, if you have your spiritual eyes open, you can see them in the Spirit like John (all through Revelation), and Daniel... and I could probably go on and on...
There is no possible way to see angles because that is the spiritual realm
So did the manna get "toned down" 😂
And also, Micah, the Israelites received manna from heaven and they were able to eat it, so...
Wait, so did the gems get toned down or sum? 😂
... in fact, He didn't just tone it down, He actually emptied Himself of all that... but after He rose again, He did have to tone it down.
🙄😂 Jesus was heavenly... and obviously He had to tone down His glory so that people would be able to stand up in His presence while He walked on this earth...
Cool. I think anything “heavenly” would be too much for us to handle. Idk what God was trying to tell you, but wow. 👌
😂😂Yeah, right...*shakes head*....old man...🙄 Well, if they weren't from heaven, then where else would they be from? And what do you think God was trying to tell us? (Btw, we still have those gems, in case you're wondering)
Yah know... it’s interesting. idk if those gems were from heaven but I do think that God was telling you something. 👌 Btw that’s why I said idk, don’t get mad at me, I’m an old forgetful man 👴.
Uhhh...Micah? Have you read Revelation before? It says right in Revelation 21 that there are gems in heaven! 🤦♂️
... ummm, Micah?? No gems in heaven??
Me too 😉 Plz check out the article, BM. It really helps to explain everything. And the same goes for you, Micah, if you're reading this 😅I don't want to hear any skepticism until you've read the full article. 😂😂
I will read it... but we don’t even know if there are gems in heaven 😐
Oh wow! I didn't see you had written. 😅 But yes!! I agree! 😊
Hehe, we sent our messages at practically the same time...
They’re not just assuming they were from heaven 😊 The article explains it all! I think it’s really cool that happened! You should definitely read it BM
No, I know you're not. 😊 I understand, but as I said, it has a LOT of context. Roger was going to put it in here, but he decided you might as well read the article.
I didn't read the article. But you can't just assume it's from heaven.(sorry, I'm not trying to attack you)
We didn't have them... and did you read the article and see the pictures? Because there is a lot of context.
Where else would they be from?
I'm having a really hard time believing you.😐
Roger really? are you sure they were from heaven?
Ok, so I decided that the story I wanted to tell was too long to write out here, so I'll just send you a link to the article my dad wrote about the incident. It's pretty amazing, so plz check it out. 😃 I'll just say that it's about how we found supernatural gems from heaven in our house. The article includes pictures and everything. Here is the link: https://tinyurl.com/yut3zzcd
@Roger: please look at memorize Gods word message wall.
Wow, that's miraculous! 😄
I have one cancer related to. a doctor said someone in our church had cancer, the person went in for many checks, she was told she would die in 6 months but since then its been over a year.
Praise God, Micah! 😁 Yes, God doesn't always heal, and if he doesn't there is probably a good reason for it. 😉
But sometimes he doesn't heal people. And that's ok. But ive seen so many miracles! Someone in our church had cancer. He went in for his surgery and there was no cancer!
Ok, so, btw, the miraculous stories don't have to be about healings, necessarily, altho u can still do those, for sure. 😊 But I'm gonna do one that's a little bit different. Ok, so here we go. And this is kind of long, so it'll be in several different posts and summarized.
Yeah. So, how about we go ahead and swap some miracle stories, since we all believe in them. 😊 I'll give some later, but right now I gotta go somewhere, so you guys can feel free to share yours for now. And how about we try to stick to personal stories, like instances we've actually witnessed first hand. 😉
Yes, but you have to be careful, it can lead to misuse, especially in the church
Well, Sethers, I wouldn't go so far as to say all that about MOST miracles today being faked. The reason I was saying I don't follow Benny Hinn is that there are questionable things concerning him. But I agree that it's not right for ppl to perform miracles for financial gain. But I do know that God has used many ppl in performing miracles, and it's still for us to do today.
I think most miracles are faked today but I have seen some real miracles before, pretty epic if I can use that word😂I think that it is wrong for those tv healers and stage performers to ask people for money. I have seen those tv healers and they are so wrong, they “heal” people with cancer, what about the people in wheelchairs? he can’t heal them? they don’t have enough faith? it’s pretty messed up
Yeah Micah, I do not agree with Benny Hinn
It is correct that we need to be careful. I also do not follow Benny Hinn. I cannot say that all of the miracles he performed were faked, because I have not done that kind of research, but I would not follow him.
I believe in miracles that happen today, but sometimes they are faked, like Benny Hinn. So be careful to not be deceived.
I think the world is billions of years old. jk,XP
Absolutely, Nadia. Me too! And maybe eventually, we can share some miraculous stories, cuz that would be très intéressant! 😁
Yes, yes, yes, Nadia!!! Same!
I definitely most certainly believe in miracles and have experienced them and have seen others experience them as well.
Haha...soda is bad for your health but I drink it sometimes just bc it tastes good xP
Well, do you believe in miracles, Micah? And I mean miracles happening today.
Well duh. 😂 🤦♂️ I’m out of ideas.
Yeah, it's bad, as in, not good for you.
Well, not good.... but not really bad unless you drink soda a lot
Well, in terms of health--bad. 😅
😂 Yeah, so dumb. Ok, well, that was a quick discussion (tho, Nadia wasn't apart of it, but I'm sure she'd agree 😅) Do you all want to move on to another one now?
Yah. Very faulty science 😂
That millions of years thing is dumb
Yeah, plz tell me your kidding, Sethers. 🙄😏
I think it is about that old also. 😁 Contrary to popular opinion. 😂
Anyone want to do that one?
Janna, I was thinking of that one a while back, but I forgot about it. Thx for remembering. 😂
Micah, I'm glad to hear! 😅
Okay, here’s mine. How old is the world?
Ok, that's good, Micah. 😊 But I think that SDAs believe that it's not eternal, so that might include BM....but he's not here right now.
Nah, why wouldn’t I think hells eternal? it specifically says so in the Bible!
Btw, everyone, I sent something over on GAFTT. 😊 Just thought I'd let you know, in case you don't normally check that group. Cuz, I kinda want all y'all's thoughts.
Maybe that means we're supposed to debate about it.... if you don't believe hell's eternal, of course.
So...does everyone agree to do that topic, or....
Oh... wow. Yeah, that is weird...
No.... but I was kinda in a conversation online about this over the past few days... kinda weird....
Ummm, because, if someone on here doesn't believe that hell's eternal, I want to show from the Bible that it is. 😁 Why? Is that like a no, no topic, or something?
@Vera.... ...... ...... ...... real quick, why do you want to talk about that particular subject...
What is your idea, Janna?
Please tell me what you think.
I can be the topic starter. I probably won’t do much debating, but I have lots of topics stored up.
Yeah...😄 I'm not sure what we should do....anyone up for debating about whether hell is eternal or not? (Not sure if anyone on here believes contrary to Roger and I on that topic.) 😁
Um, not much, Nadia. 😅 We're just trying to pick a new topic. Do you have any ideas? 😉
No problem. You're fine. 😅
I know that but I was just saying that I’m going to let someone else pick the topic bc I was not in the beginning of this group so I have no idea what has and hasn’t been done
Yeah, Noah, I wasn't upset with you at all. 😉
Roger was kinda saying that Christian living is extremely broad. We need something more like a little piece of that to discuss, or else no one would really know what he's debating about. 😂
What do you mean?? No one was upset with you. 😃
Moi aussi. 🙄😂 Don't mind me. I just said, "Me too." 😜
Yeah, Noah, that's kind of a broad topic. I want to do something that's very specific and defined.
We kinda already did that Noah
What a bout how we should live out our lives as christians?
How bout we find a topic where we are not at each other’s throats
So....anyone have any new topics....besides Covid and the vax...I mean, we've debated about that stuff like *scratches head* three times now. 🙄😂
Ok, let's end this discussion, too. 😉🤐
Anyone involved in politics have to compromise. no one can serve two masters.
Well, then the liberals are not right either
Micah, these ppl and I are following God, but we're also seeking the find the truth about what's goin on around us, and it's not for political reasons that they're saying what they are.
No I’m not conservative. And I’m not ripping them. I just don’t agree with people who make everything political and only follow their party instead of God!
Are you not a conservative Micah? you said you were and now you rip up on other people?
or some random conservative who some reason made this political?
Roger where do you get your percents 😂 the people who track that? who?
Also, that probably wouldn't work, Micah, with the zoom calls. We don't use Zoom, so...I mean, yeah, some debates would be nice to do in person, but it wouldn't really be feasible...especially with time differences, availability, etc.
First, about the article, I'm not convinced. It just said they continued to follow the women who got pregnant in the study, but what happened to their babies in the end? They could have miscarried or been stillborn. Miscarriages had skyrocketed 366% in six weeks due to the Covid vax.
Sure, if everyone is ok with it
Np Roger. Ik Micah, but I don’t think this is wrong
And would you guys be ok (it’s ok if you are not) with doing a zoom meeting or something (just with our voices, no videos if you don’t want to) so we can debate stuff “in person?” 😂 I feel like it would be better that way 🤷♂️
Can you guys just read this real quick? https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210112/why-covid-vaccines-are-falsely-linked-to-infertility
Yeah, let's end. Do you have any new topics, Micah?
Loving something does not always mean that’s it’s good, but ok Vera, let’s end.
Btw, you had said, "Yep I have and I love it", just in case you forgot. 😬
Whoops, Sethers! 😬 I accidentally removed your comment! Sorry! 😱
Anyone have any other ideas for a debate topic?
I knew you were going to say that, Micah, but I think it still applies...but anyway, I'm done debating this. 😉 It really is not doing any good. What we do about this is between us and the Lord, and what you do is between you and the Lord.
Vera! did you know there are things called sabbaths? “holy days?” Ans oc you do Sethers, you have grown up in a sunda church your whole life.
I still think Vera and Roger are correct
Yes, I agree with Vera. Also, BM and Micah, if you're really that interested to know why we do it on Sunday, here's a full blown explanation. https://tinyurl.com/5wapcb98
"Therefore let no one pass judgement on you in questions of food or drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath (Saturday). These are only a SHADOW of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col. 2:16-17)"
I did not want to debate about this in the first place anyway. As I said before, God has led my family and I to worship Him on the Lord's Day (the first day of the week.) He would not lead us into something wrong. Besides, even if you convinced Roger or I (which we are not even close to being), we would not just be able to go and have our own Sabbath on Saturday, when the rest of our family is doing it on Sunday.
Idk why you don’t, because BM had some really good points you didn’t answer, but fine. we will end.
But I would prefer not to continue this debate. ☺️
I understand what you are trying to say. (Btw, Roger's main point about "Sun"was that Jesus is literally called "the Sun of Righteousness" (not to be confused with the actual sun in the sky) in Malachi 4:2. But that was just an interesting side note. He wasn't making that one of his major points.)
I’m not trying to make you feel condemned or anything, but I am saying that it is very clear that humans changed the Sabbath, not God.
You also stated that it is no coincidence that SUN day and Jesus being the SON of God is no coincidence. First off, you should not just change the day of rest because another day has a similar name to the Son of God. And, Second, it is spelled SUNday because the Pagans worship the Sun God in that day(which is why the pope changed that day to sabbath).
Jesus rose on Sunday, but that does not have anything to do with Sabbath, either(but you could also say that Jesus rested in the grave on Sabbath😉).
I’m not trying to put you down, but I am saying that there is no implication that the Bible ever says that we should change days. They congregate on Sunday, yes, but that has nothing to do with it being Sabbath.
And we're also not doing it because of anything the pope did or said. 🤦
Bible Memorizer, Roger and I did not want to get into a big debate on this. I disagree with what you said. Our family believes the way we do after praying about it and searching the Scriptures. You can feel free to worship on Saturday, just please don't go telling us that we're in the wrong when we feel that God has led us in this. I don't think I'm sinning by observing the Lord's Day on Sunday. ☺️
The Bible gives no implication of a change, and when the Pope said that the new Sabbath was Sunday confirms that there was not a change until then. you do not need to change something that he already changed. the reason why Sabbath was changed to Sunday was so that the Pagans would start joining the church(they worshiped on Sunday and did not want to change the date). All we did was take the tradition of the Catholics and impose it on the Protestants.
But I will say that just because the disciples gathered together on Sunday does not mean that it was them worshiping in Sabbath.
I don’t have time to debate it right now, but I do think that Saturday is the Sabbath.
Btw, Sethers, np. 😉 You just got a bit confuzzled there for a minute, that's all. 😂
Also, just another interesting tidbit about Sunday worship. So, I know that the Romans were the ones that came up with the names of the days of the week that we use today, and that those were based on their pagan worship of the celestial beings. But think about: Jesus is the SON of God, and he's also the "SUN of Righteousness." (Mal 4:2) So, quite coincidental that we worship the SUN (Jesus)/SON on SUNday. Also, in that passage where it talks about the Sun of Righteousness, it is talking about Jesus rising from the dead, and Jesus rose on SUNday. Just a bit of irony, but I know you're just going to scoff at it. 😂 So, let's just end the debate.
🙄🤦♂️ You know what, Micah, I didn't really want to debate about this in the first place. So, we should probably just end this now. My family and I feel that God is leading us to worship him on Sunday, so we are just doing what he is leading us to do and what we see in Scripture. You may not believe the same way we do about the Sabbath, but that's btwn you and God.
If God we’re to actually make Sunday the ‘holy day’ then wouldn’t He be clear? Let’s see, he was clear when he created the earth, he spelled it out. He was clear when he revealed it to Moses, he spelled it out in the Ten Commandments. HE NEVER ONCE SAID “Sunday is the day you will rest, the day you shall cease working. All other days you will toil and sweat, but on this day, you are to spend your time with me specifically.” Never! Never evererer! 😂 to say theat because Jesus came on Sunday, Tuesday, Wenesday, or Friday or whatever day means that we should CHANGE WHAT GOD ORIGINALLY SAID, is not right.
I do go to church on Sunday
Oh, I thought you were saying it was on Saturday Roger😆😬I agree with whoever said it’s on Sunday
yeah Sethers I wasn't saying it was wrong either. I meet on more days than just Sunday
Sethers, I thought you did church on Sunday. 🤔
Um, Sethers? I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying that we can't worship God on any particular day. What I'm trying to do is show Micah why we observe the Lord's Day on Sunday. I never said that worshipping him on any other day was wrong. 🤦♂️ They can do the Sabbath on Saturday if they want, but I'm showing him why we do it on Sunday. That's all. 😉
I don’t think that there should be any day that we cannot worship God on
Also, the two on the road to Emmaus told Jesus that "it is the third day since all this took place." (Luke 24:21b) They said that the SAME day the women found the tomb opened aka. the same day Jesus rose from the day.
Also, the fact that Jesus appeared twice, as recorded, to the disciples on the first day of the week, (John 20:19, 26) was a way of putting honor on that day. "God designed to put honour upon it, by ordering it that they should be altogether, to receive Christ's first visit on that day. Thus, in effect, he blessed and sanctified that day, because in it the Redeemer rested." Also, the fact that Pentecost happened on Sunday is another way that God was signifying the first day of the week as holy and special. Why do you think that God picked those days of all days? He could have picked any others, like Saturday, to have those significant events happen.
😐🤦♂️ Micah, it says it right in the Bible that Jesus rose on Sunday. "When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week..." (Mark 16:9a) (And don't tell me that Constantine changed that 🤦♂️) So, that means that Jesus died on Thursday evening. Thursday night--1 night, Friday--1 day, Friday night--2 nights, Saturday--2 days, Saturday night--3 nights, Sunday--3 days.
Ok, the apostles meeting on Sunday does not mean anything. Are youth group meets on fridays, are church meets on Wednesday’s, we have bible studies on Monday and Thursday. The resurrection of Jesus was not on a Sunday! If he died wenesday night. spent wenesday 1 night, Thursday 1 day, Thursday 2 night, Friday 2 day, Friday 3 night, Saturday 3 day, he actual rose on Saturday night. Mary came to the tomb Sunday morning, but that’s not when he raised. Sure Jesus did appear to them on Sundays, but NEVER changed the day. Through his ministry they abserved the sabbath! The first fruits of our week? did God do this when HE APPOINTED THE SEVENTH DAY AS SABBATH?
I also agree with Roger about this.
And thirdly, the apostles met on the first day of the week. (Acts 20:7) (1 Cor 16:2) And the other instances mentioned in my previous comments.
Also, having our Sabbath rest on the first day of the week is a way of giving the Lord the firstfruits of our week, just like we do with tithing.
Ok, Micah. There are several reasons why we celebrate the Lord's Day on Sunday. First off, Constantine did NOT change it...that's a myth. 🤦♂️ And that myth can easily be disproven by knowing a few things. So, for Christians two important events happened on Sunday. First, the Resurrection of Christ occurred on Sunday (John 20). Secondly, the Holy Spirit descended upon the Church on Pentecost Sunday (Acts 2). Also after His Resurrection, Jesus appeared to the Apostles twice, each on Sunday (John 20:19, 26). As a result, Sunday became known as the Lord's Day for Christians.
Aslo btw the constintene (name spelled wrong oc) changed it... I think.
Oh and Roger we also believe that sundown to sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, sense that is how they did it biblically. Also we do not think it’s wrong, we just do not understand why you wouldn’t do it on the day God created it to be on.
I don't think doing it on Sunday is wrong either.(I go to church on Sunday)
I speak for Micah when I say that WE believe that Sunday worshippers aren’t sinning by keeping the Sunday sabbath. But I would like to hear your reasons, if you’re ok with me showing mine.
But aside from the difference in the day, Micah, I actually agree with you on how we should observe the Lord's Day. I agree that it should be a day of rest, where we don't spend any money, we focus on Jesus, fellowship with other believers, and don't do normal, secular activities. And that it is meant to be set apart to the Lord. So, on those points, we agree. 😌
Yeah, I was just kidding, kinda. 😂 But, seriously, Micah, I actually agree with ALMOST everything you said! I'll explain. So, first of all, we observe the Lord's Day, from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday. And, we have reasons for doing it on Sunday, and they're biblical. Also, someone who wants to have their day of rest on Saturday, bc of their convictions, I'm not gonna say that's wrong. But what I don't agree with is when ppl who believe in Saturday only worship say that worship on Sunday is wrong or of the devil. (I'm not saying you're doing that, btw)
Fr Roger? Who has basically been alone for every single topic? (hint: me) You would do fine 😂 But I think that the sabbath should be a day of rest, not spending any money, focusing on Jesu, spending time with family friends, and not doing “normal activities you would do during the week. It is meant to be set apart. Oh, I also believe it should be kept on Saturday (sense God never really changed it) but the reason he did that WAS to give us a day of rest/worship so if you do so on Sunday it is kinda fine, but there is no reason you shouldn’t do it on the day God created it, Saturday/day 7.
Yep, that's basically what we're all saying, so we all agree. 😁
I think that it’s good to have devotions in the morning and at night I don’t think there’s any certain time you should your devotion
But...I guess we could....just remember: we're still waiting for Sethers. 😂
😬 Yeah, but it might start a debate.
I’m really curious what people have to say about the Sabbath but we don’t have to debate it so I like Vera’s idea :)
Ok I’m cool with what ever it was just a suggestion. Yea we should probably let sethers answer this one 🤣
And before we do, we should probably let Sethers say what his opinion is about personal devotions. 😉 Cause he had wanted to do that one...
Roger, you'd have me here, also. 😂 But honestly, I'm not interested in debating it either... maaaybe we could all just say what we do and then leave it at that. ?? Anybody for that?
🤷♂️ But seriously, I'm not really interested in debating that myself. 😬 I have beliefs and convictions on that topic for sure, but it's just one of those topics where it gets kinda...messy...😏
Um....I...don't...know...about...that 😂 *whispers with pleading eyes* 🥺 Nadia, you aren't just going to leave me here to debate this by myself?! Are you? 😂 (jk)
Yeahh.....if you guys want to debate it go ahead, I'll just watch xD
Btw, Noah, we had already ruled out doing a Sabbath debate a while back 😉, mainly cuz Nadia says it gives her a headache. 😂😂
Oh, whoops! I forgot to give Sethers a chance for him to give his input! 🤦♂️😂 We had better wait for him to respond on the matter of this topic, until we move onto something else.
Lol! What about the sabbath? When and how it should be done
Anyone have another topic? That one was pretty short. 😅
Yeah, Nadia. That's a good way to do it. 😉 So, I guess it's really just a matter of personal preference and variations in schedule, so...yeah...not much to debate about. 😂
I usually read the bible and pray in the morning right after I wake up, and then we have a "devotion" thingy with my mom when we start our school day, and then at night I usually will read the bible for a few minutes and then pray until I fall asleep.
I do the same thing as Roger. 😉 It's good to give God the first of our day...tho, I could do better about putting Him at the VERY beginning. 😕 But with the Lord's prayer, it would be kind of odd to be saying, "Give us THIS DAY our daily bread" if we've already finished all our meals for the day. 😅 But this is just the way I see it... And, of course we should pray throughout the day (1 Thess 5:17), and I could definitely stand to do better with this, too.
Well, I have my personal devotions in the morning and then at night we have family devos or family prayer, so...it's good to do it in both the morning and the evening! 😊
Lol, I also think that it’s fine either way.
I think night, but that’s me. 😂 It’s fine to do it either way. I do it both in the morning and the night, so I start my day with God, and end my day with God.
Thank you Vera and Roger! 😊
Haha, Agent! 😂 Ok.😉 @Noah, yeah sure! 😄
Oh yeah I’ve been watching this not saying anything. You probably shouldn’t ever wait for me
Can I join in this conversation?
Yeah, we probably should. So, is everyone ok with doing the new topic? Or does anyone have another idea? 😉
Ok, so should we start without Charis? I think she usually watches until she wants to say something...
Micah, tell you brother I said "happy birthday!" 🥳
Hey, Nadia and Micah! Ok, no problem! 😁 I thought you were probably busy. 😉
I had a track meet from 2:30- 7:15 yesterday and I was exhausted, also it was my little brothers birthday.
... ummm we might want to wait until Micah comes back (he's been off for a day or so). The others are over at GAFTT. But if we just start now, and we find out we agree, we won't have anyone to debate with. 😂 Lemme see what I can do...
Well, should we start now?
Great news, Henry! Praise God! 😁
Great! I've been praying and will continue to pray you do well. 😀
I just finished my final exam essay. Now I’m off the finish my final essay. 😅
Where in da world is Micah??! 😆 and everybody else? 😅
I think we would agree but I’m not sure
Um, I guess I can say it now...it's about whether it's better to have your personal devotions in the morning or in the evening.
Yeah, but, if no one does, then I've got one... We've just gotta wait for everybody to come back over here. 😄 Cuz they're all over at GAFTT right now... I think. 😂
Yeah, anyone have suggestions?
Yeah. I don't think either of us will convince the other so...let's pick another topic 🤝 (I have an idea, btw, and it's another very opinionable topic) 😉 Let's see, tho, what Micah and the others say.
Ok, I read it. doesn’t change my mind about anything because I have verses too that say that you cannot lose your salvation but I already know we disagree, even though the verse doesn’t say anything about losing your salvation. anyways, we should debate something else sense we already discussed this
Plz read the verse carefully. Sethers, we have eternal life, but it's conditional. There is something we must do in order to keep that. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that we're saved by works. But it says right in that verse what we must do. So, you can't argue with that. 😉
“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have WANDERED FROM THE FAITH and pierced themselves with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. TAKE HOLD OF THE ETERNAL LIFE to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to KEEP THIS COMMAND WITHOUT SPOT OR BLAME until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Tim 6:10-14, emphasis added)
Just wanted to add something before we quit this debate. Eternal life wouldn’t be Eternal if you lost it tomorrow.
Ok, Henry. I responded to you on the overflow debates message wall, just so that in case you don't get around to reading them soon, they won't get buried on here. 😂 Also, so that we don't reignite the debate with Sethers. 😅 Btw, sorry for all the long comments that I made over there. 😬 I just wanted to cover all the basis. I hope all of that helps you. 😊
Yeah, Henry. Have a good night. 😄 I have to go to bed shortly here, too. So, I'll look at the verses tomorrow and respond. After that, we should be done, like Micah said. 😉
I think that’s enough theology for me today. I need all the energy I can for this essay. 😩
I say we end this discussion
From what I gathered from reading more ESV commentary on other verses, the people who wrote them are saying that those who fall never had genuine faith
🤔 the ESV commentary for 2 Peter 2:20-22 says it’s “more likely that Peter is referring to to those who appeared to be Christians but then showed by their apostasy and their behavior that they never belonged to Christ.”
I'll respond to the others in a bit, but I gotta go for a while. 😉
Henry, for John 10:27-29: Nobody can snatch us out of Jesus' hand, but we can choose to walk away from Him, bc we have a freewill. God doesn't want us to walk away, but He can't force us to stay. As long as we REMAIN in Him, He will remain in us. (Jn 15: 7,10) 😊
The commentary for 2 Peter 2:20-22 from the ESV study bible also cross references Romans 8:28-39 and Philippians 1:6
Roger, what are your thoughts on John 10:27-29?
Yeah, Henry, you're right. They can't if they don't believe And it also explicitly says that they escaped it by knowing Jesus. That's being saved.
I’m also wondering how they could escape the corruption of the world without believing. It’s pretty clear to me.
Ok, Sethers, I'm back. Now, let's please continue this debate in peace. Once again, I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way, cuz I don't mean to. 😃
Ok, cause you came across the wrong way for sure
Sethers, I've gotta go real quick, I'll be back shortly. 😉
I'm not angry with you, Sethers and I'm perfectly calm too. 😊 If I came across the wrong way, I didn't meant to and I'm sorry.
The verse says the ppl knew the Lord but then fell away. What else could it possibly mean but that? plz tell me. I really want to know
I’m perfectly calm Roger, you were the one who started it and started sounding like you were angry so I don’t know what you are getting at
Haha, you are not very nice when it comes to debating🤐I already told what they mean, using the same words in the verse so I don’t get why you just attack me🤷♂️
Ok Sethers. Plz calm down. 🙏 I didn't mean to start an argument and I don't want to have one. 😊
I am doing the same, I used the same words as you and you said I was twisting them
I am not twisting these verses, how do you know you are not twisting them?
You already turned it into an argument Roger, I was being nice and then you said what you said and now it’s an argument, you say I started it??
Sethers, I'm not trying to be your enemy here. Just plz tell me what the verses even mean to you, if not exactly what they say
All I'm really doing is showing you verses and then explaining them by using the same words in the verse
No, I'm definitely not always right. Sethers, plz don't turn this into an argument. I don't want to do that 😄
Actually I do, cuz I don't have to twist any of these verses to get them to fit my beliefs. 😉
I do not disagree with the Bible, do you? that’s what it looks like, you think you are always right, really?? I do not think so
Haha, I know you were going to say that my beliefs contradict the Bible, how do you know yours aren’t? the answer is you don’t
I'm just testing your beliefs against the Bible
Sethers, I'm not trying to be mean. 😉 I'm just pointing out these verses to you and then seeing how you could possibly refute them, cuz you can't.
You mean you disagree with the Bible? That's what the Bible says, so if you don't agree with that then....😕 If you disagree, then what does the part of the verse I just pointed out even mean to you??
It was supposed to be nice, not mean
So maybe we should stop arguing, you are getting a little out of hand
Haha, Ik that’s what you think, I’m not wrong. just interpreting what I see
And, Sethers, if the Bible contradicts your beliefs, which it does, then you are just following men's teachings and not the Bible. That is not what we're supposed to be doing.
Sethers, you just took part of the verse and then used that to throw it out. It says at the beginning that they have escaped the corruption of the world by KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Of course they were saved! but then they fell away.
Jesus has offered people salvation and they KNOW it but they choose not to believe it
Roger, it says “it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way” its says known, not believed
Ok, whatever. I guess you can keep sending me verses, it won’t change my beliefs though
Ok, Sethers. This says it SO CLEARLY that you can't refute it. Plz read it CAREFULLY. 🙏 2 Pet, 2:20-22: “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
🤦♂️Sethers, you're still not getting it, but whatever. Let's move on to all the other verses that Vera and I have. Ok? 😉
They can’t be Vera, everyone is on the vine, they are the branches, those who choose not to believe in Jesus are cut off
But it’s ok, I already told you guys that I disagree
No, your looking at it differently then me
Sethers, the branches=the believers. Jesus said if your remain in me, I will remain in you. So if someone is connected to the Vine=remaining in Jesus=Jesus is abiding in them=they are saved=only believers are connected to the Vine. See?
How can they be cut off if they were never in the Vine???
Sorry, hadn't see your comment
...ok..Sooo... what's it saying??
God created everyone=the branches. those who choose not to believe in Jesus are cut off and thrown into the fire
No, this verse isn’t saying what you think it’s saying
So you are saying that the world is in Jesus.
Sethers.... Jesus = the Body of Christ. 😐
So... that doesn’t say it’s the body of Christ
Oh, there they are. Sorry. I hadn't seen them bc of the delayed messages. 🤦♂️
Sethers, Jesus said, "I am the Vine; you are the branches." (John 15:5 a)
Look at the 2 posts below yours
I just said it Roger haha
And no where in John 15 does it say that it is the body of Christ
Sethers, then what did you say? And you didn't answer 1 Tim 3: 6. You just said you would do research on it, but never came back about it.
That same thing is for recent converts, it does not say lose your salvation, it says “the Lord rebuke you”
A new convert is likely to become prideful, and just like you said fall under the same condemnation as the devil. which is pride. here is a verse, Jude 9. look at it
Read what I said, I answered your question
Vera, haha. that’s not what I said
But you didn't answer what I said about 1 Tim 3:6 way down below. Please respond to that.
So Sethers your saying that everyone in the world is apart of the body of Christ until they decide not to believe in him?
I disagree Vera, and it’s ok for you to have your own opinion about what the Bible says, we can agree to disagree.and I read the verse and I don’t get what you are trying to say Roger, it doesn’t make any sense the way you explain it
Sethers, unbelievers are not in the Vine in the first place and then broken off because they don't accept Jesus into their heart. On the contrary, one is grafted INTO the Vine AFTER he accepts Jesus. But then if he falls away, he will be broken off.
Roger meant please read Romans 11:17-24
The verse in John 15 where it says and those who did not abide in me were thrown into the fire, that verse is people who choose not to except Jesus and they are useless to Gods kingdom so he throws them into the fire
Haha, I did. I guess we think differently, we can agree to disagree. I am not changing my belief
Exactly Roger, those who remain (choose to except Jesus into their hearts) those are unbelievers, the ones who are broken off because they are useless to Gods kingdom
Sethers, Jesus is the Vine. If you're connected to the Vine, you're remaining in the Vine. And as you said, those who remain in the Vine are Christians. Thus the branches Jesus was talking about are Christians. When they stop believing, they are broken off. So, no unbelievers are apart of the Vine. (Rom. 11: 17-24). Plz read those verses.
Uhh, no. 🤦 I'm sorry, but that's saying that an unbeliever is apart of the body of Christ-- Christ=the Vine--and that is not so.
Throws* sorry about the spell check thingy😂
From my studies and my reading of John 15, here is what the verses mean. Every human being is on the tree, whoever abides in Christ is saved, whoever doesn’t abide in Christ isn’t saved and is useless for Gods kingdom so he takes the unbeliever off and through him into the fire
I’ll give an answer for John 15
Ok, I miss understood him
Yeah, he was. So Sethers, please don't come back from your research with a bunch of verses about being saved through grace. We all agree on that point. What we're debating about is whether a Christian can lose his salvation/fall away or not.
Yeah, I was, Sethers. Please read the comment again since you obviously didn't get what I was saying. 🤦♂️
Yeah, he was just basically telling you he agreed.
Roger, I also said that it isn’t works that saves us or works that keeps us saved. it’s Gods Grace that saved us and Gods Grace that keeps us saved
Ok. But, Sethers, of course our works don't save us! I never said that. 🤦♂️ It is God's grace that saves us. But repentance is necessary, however, and repentance is NOT A WORK. Jesus himself said, "Unless you repent, you, too will all perish"! (Luke 13: 3,5) And grace is not a license for sin. (Jude 4; Rom. 6:15)
This is part of my research, I’m still working. getting scriptural backing too
Since we are not saved by works, we aren’t kept by works. It is Grace that saves us and Grace that keeps us. If we have Gods sufficient Grace then we do not need works to save us, if we have works to save us then we don’t need Gods Grace
Yeah, I know. It might do him some good to study these verses we're giving him. 😉
Yeah, I know. He's free to look it up. That's actually what I do during the debates sometimes, too. 😁
it might be straight forward to you, but maybe not to him. There is nothing wrong with studying 👍
He can do what he wants guys.
Oh, ok. 😉 I mean, to me, it's pretty straight forward.
😂😂 ok. Whatever... But that verse is not the only one, so the commentaries may not be able to hold up that belief too long, before twisting the verses.
No, I’m going to look at it in the Greek and from lots of commentary’s
So...are you done yet? (no rush, btw; just wondering) 😉
Good way to go through it Sethers 👍
Searched up what the verse means
What do mean by research?? 🤔😅
I have not researched that yet😂
Sooo, do you have an answer to the verse I gave, then?
Ik Ik Ik😂nothing you say is going to change my thoughts about it and the same the other way around
No, didn't mean you, Sethers. I'm trying to take out the OSAS belief. 😉😂
Ok, so are you saying you want to take me out more?😂 I’ll look the verse up
Yeah. That verse alone outta pack the punch.
😆 But Sethers, I still have A LOT of verses left to give. For example: "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil." (1Tim 3:6) See, it says RECENT CONVERT, so it's talking about a Christian. And it says, "FALL UNDER THE SAME JUDGMENT AS THE DEVIL."
Maybe we could pick a topic where it’s 2v2
It’s not that fair to have 3 against 1😞🤣
But wait! We were just getting started! I haven't even given all my verses, yet. 😂 And you only gave ONE!
Ok, I won’t convince you of what I studied so I guess we will stop arguing, well done on your debate
Yes, that's right, Micah! God's the only one that can convince him, and I pray He will! 🙏 But we can still try to help him see the truth, like we're doing. 😁
Be patient guys. Sometimes someone doesn’t get something immediately and that’s ok. Also remember that God will convince him if he is to be convinced. Not you. ✌️
Yes, Sethers, please do that. You're still not getting it. 🤦♂️
And please read it carefully without the "tinted glasses".
Please read the verse again, Sethers. This is talking about those who were IN THE VINE/TREE. You CAN'T be IN THE VINE/TREE if you are not TRULY SAVED. The only way a branch can be cut off from a tree is if IT'S ON THE TREE. 🤦♀️ Btw, I have more verses I can share with you, so I'm just getting started here.
“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but IF you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.’ Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, BUT YOU STAND BY YOUR FAITH. Do not be conceited, but fear; FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS; OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF .” (Rom 11:17-22; emphasis added)
They are people who are useless for the kingdom of God, claim to be Christians but they really aren’t
Ok, I’m back, correct Roger, the people who didn’t believe in him he threw into the fire. that is talking about the unbeliever who chooses not to believe in Him
Oh, ok. Well, hopefully he gets it now, but I'm not sure. 😂
He read it again and saw the light 😂 💡
Sethers, Jesus said "I AM THE VINE!" Of course he's the tree! We (the believers) are the branches! It says they were broken off FOR THEIR UNBELIEF! They were believing when they were on the tree! But when they stopped believing, they were broken off. It's very plain and simple. You're twisting Scripture, Sethers.
@Micah, your straight on! They wouldn't be on the tree if they were unbelievers! 😂🤦♂️🤦♂️ Sethers, I already knew that's what you OSAS ppl say about that passage, and what you say about it is twisting Scripture!
Never mind Micah, I just read it😂 I’ll get back to you later on that, I am going to help my parents with the food bank we run, see ya guys later.
Yes he would, Jesus never said the tree abides in him
But the unbeliever wouldn’t be on the tree in the first place Sethers
What version are you using?
Vera🤦♂️let me explain this, you are taking it out of context. When He says he will throw the branch into the fire He is talking about the unbeliever, he separates the believer from the unbeliever on the day of judgment
“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but IF you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.’ Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for IF God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, IF you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.” (Rom 11:17-22)
"IF anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” (Joh 15:6)
And, "“For IF, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.” (2Pe 2:20-21; emphasis added)
Sethers, then why did Jesus have to tell us to "remain in Me" several times throughout John 15?
but if you are in God’s hands till you are accountable, then no one can take you out, meaning, from your logic, everyone is saved, always. this isn’t of topic just getting to my point Vera.
I looked up the verse that I shared with you guys (John 10:28) the no one in the verse is talking about everyone, including yourself, you cannot take yourself out of Gods hand
About the baby thing, I agree with Vera
Micah, let's not get side tracked here. Before a child gets to the age of accountability where he knows the distinction between right and wrong and can make a personal decision for Christ, if he dies, he will go to Heaven. But that's getting off topic. 😉
Wait Sethers, so if a 3 year old dies, they go to hell?
Well, Sethers, I'm here to tell you that it IS possible for a true Christian to fall away. Cause the Bible says so. Check out Matthew 18. And what I said in my correction was that after one falls away, God will seek him out, as He would do an unbeliever.
I don’t think a true Christian would want to walk away from God
No Micah, I absolutely do not believe in that
Roger, Correct, but God doesn’t correct an unbeliever, His(Gods) sheep hear his voice
Sethers, if someone is born, are they saved?
Yes, nobody can snatch us out of His hand, but we can choose to walk away from Him, bc we have a freewill. God doesn't want us to, but He can't force us. As long as we REMAIN in Him, He will remain in us. Jn 15: 7, 10
Sethers, Vera corrected herself, bc God doesn't necessarily correct an unbeliever. He goes after him like He would with an unbeliever. But as the person is falling away, He does try to correct him and bring him back, but it is possible for someone to ignore God's correction and still go astray.
John 10:28. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.
They hear the gospel preached to them Agent🤦♂️
Vera, I read them. and again I ask you, how can God correct an unbeliever?
Sethers, now that I've answered your question, plz give me scriptural backing that Christians cannot lose their salvation.
Agent, I'm pretty sure I agree with you.
God still works in the lives of unbelievers.... How else would they come to him @Sethers?? and MicahJustus because believers aren’t perfect and still make mistakes
Because he has fallen away Micah
Sethers, plz read the last three posts I put up. And sometimes, one can harden his heart and not respond to God's correction as he's falling away. Not always, but quite often.
Why would he have to correct an believer Sethers?
And you still didn’t answer my question Vera, if you fall away how can God correct you if you are not saved? God doesn’t correct unbelievers
God doesn’t correct an unbeliever Vera, read the Bible
So is Gods correction not good enough to bring us back? I know tons of people who when corrected by God are immediately brought back
Once we've fallen away, God will try to bring us back to Himself, as He would an unbeliever.
As we are falling away, He will try to correct us and put warnings in our path, but He cannot force us to follow Him.
What I am trying to say, and I actually did not put right, is that when one of us goes astray, God will seek after us to bring us back to Himself.
Vera, answer my question first and stop trying not to answer it by asking my questions
Sethers, please give me a verse that says that we cannot lose our salvation.
You guys believe that you lose your salvation when you fall away so how can God correct a unbeliever?
How can God correct a unbeliever?
Vera, you are not answering my question
God does not give up on us when we go astray.
No, because you say that you lose your salvation when you fall away so how can God correct us if we aren’t saved? he only corrects his sheep
Plz read my comment below.
And in the parable of the lost sheep, Jesus shows that he goes after those who have strayed to bring them back to Himself, so of course He corrects us! The question is, will we respond correctly?
Exactly, so how can God correct a person who has lost their salvation? does he correct unbelievers?
Leviticus 28:16. And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins. ESV btw
I never said that. In fact, I implied the opposite. Wasn't Jesus correcting his children in Revelation 2-3? And in Hebrews 12:6 it says, "because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." But when He disciplines us, we need to repent of our sins. Otherwise, it won't do any good.
Where do you see in the Bible that he does Sethers?
God doesn’t correct his children who have fallen away?? that’s crazy idea
Vera, so God doesn’t correct his children then is what you are saying
If a person falls away then he loses his salvation. But if God corrects him, and he repents, his salvation and relationship with God is restored. Just like the prodigal son (Luke 15). The prodigal son had to repent and come back to the Lord, and he was able to be forgiven. (Proverbs 28:13) There are many places in the Bible where it speaks of Christians needing to repent. This is not a works-based concept. One example is where Jesus spoke to the church in Laodecia: "Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! REPENT and do the things you did at first. IF YOU DO NOT REPENT, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." (Rev 2:4-5; emphasis added.) And in all but two of the letters to the churches in Revelation, Jesus told them to repent. So you're going to say that Jesus was preaching works??
So then what if a person falls away and God corrects him, is that losing your salvation?
Sethers, apostasy means an abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion. It’s a turning away or going away from the truth.
Um, Sethers? 🤨 Falling away is definitely the same as losing your salvation. @Henry, you're welcome. 😊
What’s falling away then?
Henry, I absolutely agree with you Henry
Those are not the same thing
Roger, those verses didn’t say anything about losing your salvation, just falling away
I heard one apologist say that maybe a person who lost faith was never really saved in the first place and that those who fall and return were always saved. I think the guy also mentioned predestination and God’s elect. What do you think?
Your idea sounds so works based, we have to live in fear that we don’t commit to many sins otherwise we will lose our salvation. that’s saying that what Jesus did on the cross wasn’t enough
There are plenty of people who think they are saved but they really aren’t
I’ve seen people fall away from God and and if they are saved then God corrects them but if they aren’t then they will just keep living not like God wants
Yeah, so your saying that what Jesus did on the cross isn’t good enough. you guys are putting this into your own hands, it’s in Gods hands
Sethers, that's exactly what Micah just said. 🙄Falling away=not believing anymore.
But you guys just said that falling away was losing your salvation. in order to get salvation you need to believe in Jesus so in order to lose your salvation you need to not believe in Jesus Micah
Micah, you're right. God isn't gonna force us to get saved. He gave us the gift. Then it's up to us whether we accept it or not. It's His will for us to be saved, but we also have a free will. Sethers, I'll respond to the rest of what you said in a little while.
Salvation is in our own hands Sethers! God won’t make you be saved! HE GAVE YOU THE GIFT!
Bruh fall away = not believe anymore, if you don’t believe that Jesus is Christ and the only way to salvation, then you will die. If you repent and believe in your heart he is, you will!
What your saying is it’s based on how you perform, if you repent of your sins right away then you are still saved but if you don’t and you fall away then you aren’t saved. isn’t that putting out salvation in our own hands?
That sounds works based Roger
Or loses his salvation, however you want to put that
Ok, so you are saying that if a person keeps living in his sin and does not repent then he wasn’t saved to begin with. correct?
Thank you for answering my question Roger. another question. How many times do you have to believe in Jesus to get your salvation back?
And, Sethers, I agree with what Roger just said...obviously.
Micah! That's wonderful! 😅
Whew! Well, I'm sooo glad we agree, Micah! Now we can tackle Sethers! 😂😂 (just kidding)
Ok, now can you answer my question?
And Roger, about Judas, I couldn’t have said it better 😂
Yes Roger! I agree with pretty much everything you said! The tasting of Gods goodness is being fully grounded/rooted! it’s participating in God’s plan! but wants you blaspheme the holy spirit / deny Gods plan for your life, there is no hope.
Yes, Henry, He would have! But Judas responded the wrong way. He had worldly sorrow/remorse, not godly sorrow, that leads to repentance. (2 Cor. 7:10) There is a contrast between what he did and what Peter did. Peter had the godly sorrow that led to repentance, but Judas did not.
Would Jesus have also forgiven Judas if he repented instead of committing suicide?
Sethers, we'll talk about that in a little bit, but I first want to finish debating Micah. 😂 K?
Roger, I have a question. if we can lose our salvation, how many sins does it take?
PS: Sorry for doing more than one comment, btw. 😬
However, probably most of the time, a person falls away bc they aren't firmly rooted and grounded in God (parable of the sower). But they CAN BE BROUGHT BACK TO REPENTANCE, bc it says it ALL OVER SCRIPTURE! Parable of the lost sheep, prodigal son. They came back to God after falling away. Also, look at Peter. He denied Jesus three times, after having walked with Jesus for THREE YEARS! But he repented and God forgave him. Also, like Nadia and I have said, we have seen it happen in real life, with ppl that we know! Like I said, even my own dad and cousin! You can't tell me that someone who falls away and then comes back and repents, that God won't forgive him. 🤦♂️
@Micah, experientially, ppl can backslide and still come back to God. God said he would forgive every sin and blasphemy, except the blasphemy against the Spirit. So, that means that, except for the blasphemy of the Spirit, if someone falls away and then repents, God will forgive him. What I believe that verse is talking about is that sometimes a person can fall away from God deliberately, and his heart is hardened and he either cannot repent, bc his heart is hardened, or he refuses to repent. At that point, there is really no hope for him. So, I think this is talking about a specific type of falling away.
I agree with Roger, and have seen the same thing.
Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Ok, so I do NOT believe in OSAS. But, Micah, I think you're going to extremes with it. It IS possible for someone who backslides to come back to God and be saved. I have scriptural backing for that, btw. 😉 Look at the prodigal son, and the lost sheep, and also Peter, just for starters. Besides that, I know of many ppl, even my own cousin and dad, who backslid at some point, and then came back to God and were saved. So, NOT OSAS, but not what your saying, either.
No, but I believe that once you are saved, then fall away and deny God, you cannot be saved again. btw that is biblical.
I don't believe in Once saved always saved.....
Yeah. ☺️ But I want to make it abundantly clear that we DO believe in the birth of Jesus. Obviously. 😄
So, basically, I'm going to bring up the next topic by asking a question: Does anyone on here believe in OSAS? (If you don't know what that stands for, then you probably don't believe in it.) 😉 But, in case you do know what it is, I do NOT believe in OSAS. 🚫
Um, how about we debate about our idea first? 😊 But MAYBE we can do the one about Christmas afterward. But I'm pretty sure that you and I won't have much disagreement over that topic. 😉 *whispers* (cuz we don't celebrate Christmas either...shhhh...) 🤫
We can debate Christmas or your idea
Me too, and it's the same as Vera's idea. 😏😏
But, yeah, maybe when Micah gets back here we can have another debate. I have an idea...😏
Well, I still don't believe it's right. But, yeah, let's move on to another topic.
Okay, first of all, they did not and are not trying to make it more understandable. The point of it is purely entertainment. I know you don’t agree with it either way and also Revelation 22 18-19 is talking about the book revelation, “And if anyone takes words away from THIS SCROLL OF PROPHECY” not talking about the whole :) anyways, I’m done talking about this
@Audrey, you're exactly correct! That's what I've been trying to tell Micah and Agent here. 😂😂🤦♂️🤦♂️
Okay y'all. Listen up. The GEN-Z 'version' isn't being taken from the original Hebrew/Greek texts, but from the human interpretation of God's Word. Therefore, we are taking and adding to God's Word 'improving' in a way that's understandable to the new generation of kids when in all honesty, it's understandable now. My younger siblings understand the Bible, and they are 8 and 10. We don't need a 'more comprehensible' version when God's Word is for al ages and levels of understanding.
There are multiple times in God's Word where it is stated that anyone who takes from or adds to God's Word will be punished.
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll." Revelation 22:18-19
"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you." -Deuteronomy 4:2
Therefore, because the GEN-Z version isn't taken from the Word of God, but by the interpretation of man, it should be counted as blasphemy.
Hey, @BM, if you want to, feel free to join us over on Theological Debates (Overflow). 😉 We have a debate going on over there that started on GAFTT. 😂
Did you ever hear of the saying, "Familiarity breeds contempt"?
Roger and Sethers, I totally agree. Micah, no, that's not the way it works. This is not just some devotional or another TRANSLATION this is a perverted copy of scripture. I don't believe those ppl are being led by the Spirit. The Spirit WOULD NOT lead them to write those things. God is not just our ole' buddy, ole' pal that we can just dishonor and disrespect. Yes He is our friend, but He is also a Holy God.
Let’s abolish versions, opinions, devotionals, no. If the person is led by the holy spirit then they will say what God wants them to say, FOR THE AUDIENCE THEY ARE AIMING TOWARD.
Ok, then let’s abolish versions.... not going to happen.
Micah, the Bible is the Bible. I don’t think ANYONE should change it to what they think it is, we don’t want the Bible to turn into peoples opinions we want the Bible to be the accurate interpretation of what God said
I still don't think it's right to do that, Micah. God's word is holy, and it should not be distorted in any way, I don't care if you call it a Bible or not. I don't think it's ok for anyone, young or old. It's just NOT right. And it's not that it's just disrespectful to us, it's disrespectful to God. And God can certainly use other normal translations of the Bible to reach young people and he doesn't need a perverted version of the Bible.
@Nadia it might be a ‘Bible’ (group of books), but not any type of holy bible. They did not translate it from original Greek/Hebrew, they used ESV. So, then it is not THE BIBLE.
It might be disrespectful to you, because that’s not how you talk. But for those that do, can’t it be ok? They are not trying to pass it off as the Bible, just a more colorful way of portraying the stories for the younger generation. It’s not a Bible. And sense it’s not a Bible, I’m ok.
Well they're kind of presenting it as the bible...@Agent
Moses stretched his hand over the sea, but it was the LORD who drove the sea back
Yes! That is awful! I think that's it's even disrespecting God! I don't think there's any excuse for that. I agree with Vera, Nadia, and Henry.
🤦 oh my!! That is a disgrace.
.... that is NOT good. I wouldn't want to be them giving account for that on the day of judgment. 😮 We do not need to and SHOULDN'T change the Word of God or anything Kingdom related in order to appeal to the world! I don't care WHAT they're calling it, it is perverted and downright wrong.
Well, if you know the story of Moses parting the sea then it’s really easy to make sense of it....
How does someone make sense of this: “Moses Yeeted the sea.” Exodus 14:21
If they haven’t had a lot of exposure to the Bible they probably wouldn’t get it but as I stated earlier they don’t use their translation by itself they always have the ESV along side
How are people supposed to understand that...
I mean I do but....that's awful
I don't understand it LOL
Since Day Uno there was Cap G. Big J was chilled with Cap G. And Big J was Cap G. John 1:1
In my opinion it’s not bad since they never use their translation and call it actually what God said they’re just translating it into gen-z speak and they always give the ESV version of the verse along side it
They’re serious.... kinda. From what I’ve seen, like in their devotional, it’s just a way to get gen-z interested. They’re not actually calling it a legit Bible version because, well, it’s not.
Wow. That's terrible. 🤦♂️🤦♂️
I have no idea. 🤷♂️ I didn't even know about the gen z bible until today, so I don't know much about it, except that it is probably really bad and even heretical. But chances are, they probably were serious, which is pretty ridiculous. 😂
Is the genz bible supposed to be a joke, or are they actually serious? 😕
Oooh, I just looked it up. Without even watching or reading any of it, I can tell, it looks REALLY bad.
yes! It's HORRIBLE...the message bible is great compared to the gen z bible @_@
@Micah, I've updated the description! It's so subtle, you'll hardly even know I did anything! 😂
Yeah, they've distorted the Bible! It's just exactly what the devil likes to do!
Yeah, Nadia, me too! 😂😂 Hmm...I've never heard of the gen z version, but I can imagine that it must be horrible! 😮
I only read the Message when I'm really bored and want to see what they say and it's so bad it's funny....but horrible...the gen z translation is WORSE
@Nadia, boy are you right about that! It has new age stuff mixed in with it and there are some parts that are really twisted! It's a corrupt version! And I also agree with Vera's comment.
Thx, Micah! 😂 Don't worry. If you knew me, you'd know that I like to stay very organized and tidy. So, no messy group description will do for me! 😅😉 And I won't do anything too drastic, either.
KJV is def not the only "true" version xD There are some other good ones out there and also some VERY BAD ONES!! The Message bible is really, really , really bad....
There you go Roger, you are now admin. Don’t do anything too drastic with the group description 😂
Bible Memorizer, that's great with your friend, and I'm glad he was able to read through the whole Bible. But I would be ETREMELY cautious of reading the Bible as a paraphrase, written in someone's perspective (e.g. The Message or The Clear Word). What if the person who wrote it has something, even ONE thing in their theology that's not correct? That one thing could be a very critical part, and it could lead people to believe a lie. There is a reason why committees, and not just individuals, translate the Bible. : )
Becca use is supposed to be because.
I know a person who could never even complete a whole book or even chapter of the Bible Becca use of his ADD, but with a translation called “The Clear Word” he was able to through the entire Bible in just months. (btw this Bible is not considered a translation, it was made by a person who woke up every day a four and wrote the Bible in the perspective that he saw it in. we know him and he is a really nice person.)
I have no idea. The KJV is not even in the correct language that God made it in. The English language is very different from the Greek and Hebrew Languages that it originated from. The reason why they only use that translation is because it is the most accurate, but different translations give you different perspectives on the same situation. kind of like the four gospels. They all tell the same story, but in different ways. Also different translations can be useful for different people. People who have ADD or ADHD can sometimes not concentrate or remember anything from the KJV because its writing is so boring, but a translation like the Message can help them with that.
How come some believe that “God Only Wrote One Book - KJV”?
And Micah, just nevermind the smirk. 😂 I wouldn't do anything to mess it up. It's a little iffy cuz of a few things like improper paragraph breaks and the typo. 🙄. Just don't be afraid to make me admin. 😂
Yeah. I'd stay away from the Message Bible as much as possible.
Yeah, but I think it’s better to just not read that and just read the accurate translations
Um.... you are right, but there is nothing wrong with that. As long as you don’t just read it only, reading it’s ok.
Oh wait! Mind if I say something? Also, The Message is NOT even an actual translation of the Bible. It's a paraphrase with many things added. Not good.
Ok, that’s good we all agree! what else should we talk about? agent1618 you should pick😉
Micah, lol! Trust me, Roger wouldn't purposely do anything to mess up your group. 😂
I definitely know it's not. I read the NIV 1984; I like it, but I know it's not the only true version, either. (The NIV 2011 is a REALLY bad version. It's gender-neutralized.)
And the smirk makes me hesitate
How is it a little iffy? And yes Sethers, KJV is just another interpretation of the Bible.
Ok good! what does everyone else think?
Btw, Micah, the description's still a little iffy, including that it has a typo. Maybe if you made me admin I could help fix it. 😏
Next topic, do you guys think that the KJV is the only true version of Gods word?
I think Roger might want to take a shot at it, but he's not gonna be able to do it until tomorrow. 😀...
I’ve been having some problems with the group description, if you want to change/add to it, please let me ‘now before and after you do, Thank you. ✌️
*relief* Whew! FINALLY! 😅
Yeah, that's good to know! 😂😂😅
I agree with you Vera and Roger 😂 finally
I agree, like if none of the men are spiritually mature enough to preach. But as soon as there is one, he needs to take the place of the woman. If he doesn't, that would not be good. But I mean, I may not be right. This can be a sticky subject.
Well, like you said in your question, I would ONLY say yes IF there was NOT a qualified man to preach. For example, in some underground church meeting somewhere in China or something and there is only a woman who can preach, I think God would allow it in circumstances like that. But if there IS a man who CAN preach, then a woman should NOT preach. And that would probably be in most circumstances. However, in any circumstance, I think that it is perfectly fine for women to teach other women, just not men. And also I think it is fine for a woman to evangelize, even to men, but not to preach to (as in teach) men. Does that make sense? 😉
I think women can preach :))
@Nadia, Yes (technically)
Yes, Micah, I agree that if a Catholic has just gotten saved and he does not yet know that the Catholic church is false, then I could see that. But at some point, if he's reading his Bible, praying (to God), and following the Holy Spirit's leading, he would at least realize that Catholicism is void of life and following unbiblical practices. At that point, if he's truly serious about following Jesus, he would leave that religion.
Nadia, same as Roger... : )
Yes. I would explain more, but I know you want a concise answer. 😉
off topic poll, do you believe a woman can preach if these is not a qualified man avaliable? yes or no pls
Once they get saved though, they might not understand why they would need to go to another church
Yes! it is hard to follow the Bible and be in a Catholic Church
If someone is coming out of Catholicism, they could still be following God, they are just at a different time in their life. They may still be trying to follow God, yes, it would be extremely hard to follow God and be in the catholic church, though, there most likely are people in Catholicism that are.
The Catholics are supposed to obey the pope and the Vatican, according to their false religion. But the concept of that whole thing with pope and Vatican is totally unbiblical and false. The pope and the Vatican are extremely corrupt and vile.
And what is with the pope and the Vatican? Do Catholics have to obey them?
But the Catholic church is not just another denomination. It is a pagan religion. If a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or Muslim were to get saved, would you tell him to stay right where he is? Jesus told the woman caught in adultery (Jn 8), "Go and leave your life of sin." That applies to everyone, including Catholics. Tell me, why would a truly saved person want to stay in the Catholic church?
I'm back! Ok, so in answer to your question, Micah. I understand there is such a thing as denominational differences. But the thing is, if we are both reading our Bibles and following the Spirit, then He will lead us into all truth. (John 16:13) The reason there are denominational differences is that some ppl are following men's teachings and they interpret the Scriptures differently. But that doesn't mean they're interpreting it correctly.
@Vera, I believe certain things about Christmas, Easter, clean and unclean, sabbath, speaking in tongues, healing, and probably a lot more things. If we were both following God, wouldn’t we agree? Wouldn’t one of us change to the others because they are right? Confusing question right there 😂
I agree with Vera on both her comments. (Obviously, though, cuz we two are like-minded. 😉)
But if He is their Lord, than that means that they obey Him. If they obey Him, they will not follow the practices of the Catholic church. At that point, why still be a Catholic?
Maybe, but if he is their Lord, and they are catholic, then they are saved.
Well, I think that if the person gets saved, they shouldn't stay in the Catholic church. Why stay there if that whole religion is dead? I think that if they stay there, that shows that they don't really want to cut the ties. And if they don't want to cut the ties, then Jesus probably is not their Lord.
Aww, what a sweet big brother you are, Micah. 😊
But I agree, tho I think if they still believe that Jesus is their one and only savior, then they are saved.
Sorry I was at track then playing with my little brother Asher (4) 😂
Listen, I believe that if anyone (including a Catholic) is praying to or worshipping Mary or the saints, they simply cannot be on their way to heaven or be truly saved. Cuz, its says in the Bible that idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9, Rev 21:8, Rev 22:15) Btw, Sethers, I'm not sure that all Catholics believe the all things you just mentioned. There are many other false beliefs of the Catholics, though, that are downright wrong.
SOME Catholics are saved, MOST are not.
They don’t believe Jesus to be the messiah, they believe him to be a prophet
Micah, I think there is a misunderstanding here. There are some Catholics who are saved, I do believe that, but here is the point they believe in works and not just by faith, they don’t worship Jesus, they worship Mary
I disagree. Wanna debate? 😏
So Catholics might be misguided, but as long as they follow Jesus above the pope, I think they are saved.
So, my Gramma is a catholic and she has not rejected the gospel. They believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. It says in the Bible. if you believe in Jesus, you will be saved.
Yeah, I agree, Nadia. Really? It seems like most of my friends have at least someone in their near family who's Catholic! Praise God that some of my relatives have gotten saved, but most of my aunts, uncles and cousins (on my dad's side) are still Catholics, and they've rejected the gospel. 😞
I'm not surprised.....most Catholics have tons and tons of statues in their houses and yards.....my whole extended family is catholic ;/
The cross (the image) can be made into an idol like anything else.
I wouldn’t doubt it, all of these crazy religions change the Bible
@BM, Idk about that, but if that's true, than that's a shocker for me, cuz I never knew that.
R u sure? I have Catholic relatives (my dad used to be Catholic), and they don't even consider praying to Mary or the saints as idolatry.
Not in the Catholic Bible! They took out the Commandment to not worship idols from the Ten Commandments so that they would not have contradiction in the church. 🤣
I guess it's because they believe that the saints will intercede for them to God. But that belief is not true bc the Bible says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim 2:5) Also, they worship Mary, bc she was Jesus mother. But they should not do that, bc she was a human just like everyone else. If you ask them why they worship idols, they'd say they aren't. Don't fall for that. According to the Bible's definition, they are.
Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the saints?
Yeah, people can make it an idol, but usually it is not.
People can make it an idol. If they’re worshipping the cross instead of God then yeah, that’s idolatry.
I think that it CAN be an idol. But more likely, a crucifix would be an idol. You know, the image of Jesus on the cross. Catholics will kneel before that to pray. THAT'S idolatry. I know you weren't asking about this, but also other things besides statues or carvings can be idols, too. I'm sure you know that.
Anyways, I don’t agree with him but what do you guys think?
He said that in the Old Testament there is a verse that says you shall not make any image out of wood or stone, remember that verse?
Thanks for letting me choose Micah!
I was talking to a man just a couple weeks ago and he asked me a question, so I thought that I thought I would ask you guys, is the cross an idol?
lol 😂😂 You outta make me admin so that it WILL be up to me! 🤣
IT IS NOT UP TO YOU *stares coldly
🤦♂️ I should've known that you'd do that. 🤦♂️😂 Well, still, I like the theological topics better. What does everyone else think? *looks around hopefully*
Well, the group IS called THEOLOGICAL discussions...🙄....soo,....besides, I'd rather stick with a theological topic. 😁 And if you have GAFTT, then there would be no theology to get away from. 😂
😂We'll have to name change to "Teenage Discussions"... No, jk.
IIt doesn’t have to be theological though, it could be like, should kids have phones? That is an example, if you actually want to debate that then 👌 😂
So...um..🤔🤨...maybe we should actually think of a DEBATABLE topic...one that's THEOLOGICAL....and not health related. I think Micah had wanted Sethers to pick the next topic. What do you think, Sethers? 😉
Cause it could affect other things besides just your gut. :)
Probably. But, obviously, it's not good to eat that kind of food, anyway.
Does working out make a difference if the unhealthy foods are processed and loaded with chemicals?
Yeah, Henry, I agree. I know we could go on for DAYS about this topic, but I don't feel like expending my energy or time on something that won't do any good to convince ppl. xD
Yeah, Nadia, I wouldn't be either. 😜 And I agree...
Yeah. I totally agree with you Nadia. And I also also agree with you, Henry, but...yeah, we did move on to a different topic. 😏 However, you're free to join us for this and other debates! 😊 @BM, lol. That's a good one! xD
lol I never worked out @_@ and eat reasonably healthy 😝 and I wouldn't be considered overweight or unhealthy....I think it depends on the person...
Ops sorry, didn’t see the topic was changed
Vaccines usually take 15 years for approval, and they are using the new mRNA vaccines. There are no long term studies for the safety of them.
conducted by the CDC and USPHS. They told them they were getting free health care
remember when the government shot up poor black people with syphilis 40 YEARS? They only stopped because they were exposed, called Tuskegee Experiment
Wow, Micah! We agree on something at last! 😌😂 That's good to know.
We don't eat out these days. 😜... for some reason or other.
I TRY to eat healthy, but I don't really have time these days to work out! 🙄😖🤦😂
Yes, I do that, but I like eating out sometimes too😎
Btw, I eat healthy AND workout. 😉
Exactly, Agent! 😁 @Sethers, are you kidding me!?! I JUST read about that stuff in science yesterday and it said exactly what you just said! You're spot on! 😉 I wonder what Micah's gonna say... well, whenever he gets back here. 🤔
I think that working out is good, but eating healthy is much more important for your overall health
But it depends on your genes, some people eat healthy and still get fat, and the other way around
I say eat unhealthy foods and workout, that’s what I do and I’m not fat, sorry if that’s too bold😂😬
I agree with Nadia and Agent. 😁 I mean really, there's not much to debate about. 😂
eat healthy foods and not work out lol
since working out wouldn’t help your internal health nearly as much
Probably healthy foods and not work out
👌 the question is, is it more healthy to eat healthy foods and not work out, or to eat unhealthy foods and workout? Ik it’s kinda weird and probably not what you expected but 🤷♂️ let’s do it.
Yeah, Micah. I think you and I (or at least I have 😂) said all we wanted to say and have kind of come to a conclusion on the matter. So, let's hear the new topic you've got for us to discuss. 😉
But please! After you respond (if you want) let's move off of this topic for good (for now). And let's go on to that "more opinionated" topic or something. 😀
Exactly Roger, that’s what I mean by fighting
Roger said it all. I stand by that.
And Micah, I said that for SOME people it may take that long, but some people experience the side effects way sooner than that, like even minutes after getting the vax. Really.
Exactly, Sethers! We need to stand up for what's right! Micah, what I meant by being a rebel is that we wouldn't comply with what they want us to do if it goes against God. I don't mean actually fighting them, bc our battle's not against flesh and blood. With God's help (cuz I can do nothing in my own strength) I would still not take the vax even if they put me in prison or kill me. So, not fighting in the physical, but fighting in the spiritual and standing up for God no matter what.
I have another discussion after this one which is 😂 more opinionated.
Wait it takes up for 14 months for the vaccine to produce side affects? 🤔 is it me or has the vaccine been out for.... less then that 😂
if someone threatened to kill you because you are a Christian, would you fight them, or let them kill you?
I don’t see a difference, and if someone tells me to denounce Christ, I with God in me will not deny that
Isn’t fighting for what you believe and standing up for your beliefs the same thing?
Yes, but Jesus didn’t come to this world to condemn the world! He came here to save it! He didn’t come to fight or rebel! He came to give us good news! Christ wouldn’t fight! They thought he was! But he did not. If the government tells me to do something I shouldn’t, I will not fight for what is right. I will stand up for my beliefs and suffer the consequences. I will obey man as long as I can still obey God.
Oh, btw @Micah I had added that sentence in the description a while ago and then it glitched for some reason..sorry xD
"Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men!" (Acts 5:29)
And, Micah, if what the government tells me to do goes against what God says, then I'll be a rebel for Jesus! 😊 Seriously. I would be an outlaw for Jesus. In fact, maybe I should start a group called "Rebels for Jesus". 😂 jk
Micah, our minds are NOT clouded by politics. I am fighting this thing bc it is apart of the antichrist/beast system and the mass deception. It has NOTHING to do with politics for me and Roger. Trust me. But for how long will you let us know after you get the vaccine? For up to 14 months? cause it could take that long for side effects to kick in. (And I'm not wishing that on you btw.)
Well I disagree, and I think that your vision is clouded by politics, but I will legit you know how I feel every day after I get the vaccine.
Micah, why would Jesus need a vaccine? He would trust in God to protect Him. Not in man's evil schemes. And we should do the same as he did. Besides, as we have already said, our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit and so we should not be having that junk injected into us.
And yes, we should try to wrap this up here, but just wanted to make my point clear to everyone before we end. 😉 "...and they were not afraid of the king's edict." (Hebrews 11:23b) I'm not afraid of Covid and I'm not afraid of the government, nor will I cow-tow to or cooperate with the beast system.
Why wouldn’t Jesus take the ‘stupid’ vaccine? Give me a legitimate reason.
Micah, just bc this is the US, DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE A FREE NATION. In fact, it's already not. People's rights are being taken away. The truth is being censored and suppressed. The communists have taken over our country and sadly, yes, the US has become a communist nation. That will probably sound absurd to you, but it's true. You can't quite see it all yet clearly on the outside, but has become that. And you just watch and see, bc if they don't make it downright mandatory, they'll at least make it so hard for anyone to live a normal life without it that people will be forced to take it. But like I've already said I WILL NOT TAKE THE VACCINE! And Jesus wouldn't either, btw. We need to trust God. Not man's evil inventions and certainly not the stupid vaccine!
👌 Sethers. One last thing. I don’t care if it does become mandatory (which it won’t, remember this is the US) because 8 will be vaccinated. it might be mandatory to do certain things but nobody is going to make you get it, you will just lose the privilege of certain things. I hope you guys will never rebel against the government. Jesus wouldn’t.
Micah, we will not change your mind, all you want to do is argue and argue and argue. so if you don’t actually want to look at the stuff we are sending you, then let’s just not discuss this
Whoops! That was me talking. I was in Rogers account. 😬
yeah, but I think it will become mandatory for everyone. Right now, they're just playing 'nice'.
They were just talking about making it mandatory....it's already mandatory if you want to fly with some air services
... oh wow. How did my comment ever come across as putting my life in the government's hands? 🤔 And no, I would never, never, never take the vaccine even if--no ESPECIALLY if it was made mandatory. My body is the temple of the Holy Spirit! I'm not going to have their junk injected into me!
Micah, exactly! She and I will never put our lives in the government's hands! NEVER! Because it says that Jesus entrusted himself to NO-ONE! If he didn't, we shouldn't either! Micah, this vax is not mandatory right now, but I can almost guarantee you that it will become mandatory eventually, and maybe not that far down the road. You watch. And you know what, Micah? Even if the government makes it MANDATORY, I will NEVER EVER EVER TAKE THE VACCINE! PERIOD! Micah! If you can trust God to protect you if you take the vax, why can't you trust him to protect you if you don't take it? That's my question and that's the way I see it.
@Vera but you said you “I am never going to put my life in the governments hands” Exactly Roger! The vaccine is a suggestion, did you know that? they are not forcing anyone to take it! If they said you have to take the vaccine you would! Because it does not go against God! You would trust God to help you, just like you do when you don’t social distance/wear a mask!
Micah, we are supposed to obey to the government, unless it goes against what God tells us. However, never in the Bible does it say that we should TRUST the government. In fact, it says the opposite. And I will NEVER trust the government. You can, but not me.
🤣 imagine me with a skirt on jumping out of a plane in a parachute. 🤣🤣
So? Women can join the army
ummm... I'm a woman, Micah.
So if the government goes to war, you will too?
I will be a law abiding citizen. But I am NOT going to EVER put my life in the government's hands.
I will pray about it in fact. But I will NEVER trust the government.
What do you mean "do you"?
Ask him. He will show you the way
Vera. Ask God, like I have. Roger. You telling me I’m wrong is telling God he is wrong sense he has revealed the truth to me
I know, but do you? @Vera cool! VAERS is a passive surveillance system, meaning it relies on people sending in reports of their experiences after vaccination. Awesome, checks to see if anything goes wrong 👍
Micah, I used to believe what you believe about Covid. I'm not sure I've specifically prayed about it, but God has shown me the truth. And if I were to deny these facts, I would not be using the brain God gave me.
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Micah, at this point, I'm just going to have to leave you in God's hands. And, maybe someday, you'll see the truth. But don't say we didn't warn you. I just feel sorry for the fact that you can't even see through all that's going around you. There's more than what meets the eye. Trust me.
You did? Everything? Have you looked at the CDC's VAERS database? I don't think I sent to you, but you can look it up.
Did you bother to spend time in prayer asking God about covid?
Micah, did you even bother to look objectively at anything I sent you?
Yes Roger, Jerimiah clearly shows what it is like to live without God. It is terrible. so?
Yes, I have listened. God does not take sides Roger. Let’s have him as the center. we are not going to use him to sway this argument. Yes I have prayed, and yes I have heard him tell me the truth. Yhe vaccine Does prevent death! the rates have gone way down sense People started taking the vaccine!
Jer. 9:5-6: Friend deceives friend,
and no one speaks the truth.
They have taught their tongues to lie;
they weary themselves with sinning.
You live in the midst of deception;
in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me,”
declares the Lord.
Micah, have YOU prayed and asked God if you should take the vaccine? Probably not. And if you did, have you actually listened to see what he said? Probably not. Btw, the WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION THEMSELVES! ADMIT THIS!: https://deception.news/2021-01-03-who-says-no-evidence-vaccines-prevent-spread.html
@Roger. I am not going to rebel, I am going to obey the government until it crosses my beliefs.
1 John 5:19: "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."
@Vera. People have died from the flu/cold. BUT the percentage of people that die from the cold is very small! Actually it is very hard to die from the flu alone, you would probably have to tack on another sickness. Also the reason so many people die from the flu is because they are not prepared! they don’t take the vaccine! Covid is different sense they don’t know a lot about it! it has been out for 1-2 years! People are being cautious, and should be because they don’t know what it would do to there bodies. I am getting the vaccine in a couple weeks and then I will be more confident because I will feel more safe that I am not spreading the virus to others. I will let you know if I die 😂 And I do not think that your truth is correct! Only God is true and what he said, and you cannot know the truth unless you ask him. And you should really ask him.
MICAH! MICAH! I beggeth you! Look at what Vera is sending you! IT'S NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!! IT'S FACTS, MICAH! (I'm not angry at you, btw, just trying to plead with you. 🙏) MICAH, THE WORLD IS BEING DECEIVED!!!! IF YOU THINK YOU CAN TRUST THE GOVERNMENT, YOU'RE WRONG. THE GOVERNMENT IS EVIL TO THE CORE, MICAH!!
Also, I keep on telling you I believe that there is such a thing as Covid. And some people have died from it (including ppl you know), but ppl have also died from the flu and common cold. But Micah you keep on asking me for facts. I've GIVEN you facts, but you're denying the truth! I don't know how to stress it enough!
I’m not correcting myself Sethers, I am showing that I’m not trying to be disrespectful! It’s hard to chat like that!
@Sethers, but earlier you were talking bout how you wouldn’t be able to have babies, and it’s bad.
The government is not evil Vera! they are not trying to kill people! this is a conspiracy theory!
Micah! Did you even READ these articles and see the videos?? You're closing your eyes to the truth! This is truth! Micah, I desperately want to tell you everything we know about the gov and the mainstream media. Maybe then you would put the pieces together and see the truth! I just don't get you. I'm sure your a very intelligent young man, but if you can't see the truth after ALL the FACTS I have sent you...
Micah, I’m not opposed to the vaccine, I think old people should get it, but not young people. tell me what the death rate is for young people under 20. it’s super low, look it up on conservative websites and liberal so you can get both sides
Micah, right there is where you are not being nice or respectful, I know you just corrected yourself but be carful next time and think through what you say before you say it
Sorry if I sound angry/rude sense I am not trying to be
first of all. These sources are all conservative. 2. have you even read what the covid 19 vaccine is? these people are uninformed! it’s a cookie cutter vaccine! it doesn’t cause your cells to mutate! Are you saying these facts are above those of the hospitals, scientists, and government! if the government can create fake facts, can’t these people? oh, if you are saying this because they are liberals... 😬. you know what, you can completely ignore that several people I have known died from covid.... oh, and they were not put on ventilators Vera. I know people who got sick and almost died! There are more people I know who have got covid and gotten very sick and dies compared to the ones that that happened to for the vaccine 🤔 wait nobody I know has gotten sick from the vaccine! This is not about controlling the population! they said that when the influenza vaccine came out! it was proven wrong!
https://vaccines.news/2021-01-14-compilation-of-recent-stories-covid-vaccine-injuries-deaths.html
https://z3news.com/w/4-months-14-months-full-ravage-happen-people-vaccinated/
https://www.thinkaboutit.online/dont-take-the-vaccine/
https://vaccines.news/2021-04-08-mrna-vaccines-may-cause-your-body-to-churn-out-prions-eat-your-brain-mad-cow-disease.html
https://z3news.com/w/israeli-researcher-people-killed-covid-vaccine-covid-virus/
Here are some fast facts from the VAERS database(from the CDC and the FDA): Out of 1.137 who died following the COVID jab.... 370 died within 2 days afterward (33% or 1/3 of all deaths), 848 died within 14 days afterward (75% of all deaths), 958 died within 21 days afterward (84% of all deaths), and 1,024 died within 28 days afterward (90% of all deaths)
Miscarriages skyrocket 366% in six weeks due to Covid vaccines
https://z3news.com/w/covid-tests-vaccines-contain-bio-accumulative-nanoparticles-that-are-causing-biological-changes-tagging-recipients-resulting-in-transhumanism/
This is from a very intelligent virus specialist whose career was ruined by Dr. Fauci and others, bc she was speaking out against their lies. https://z3news.com/w/dr-judy-mikovits-50-million-people-die-america-vaccine/
https://z3news.com/w/beth-ellington-63yearold-north-carolina-professor-dead-48-hours-johnson-johnson-viral-vector-shot/
First of all, the side effects are not always going to happen right away. It could take hours, days, weeks, or even months. But you watch...
Here are the FACTS (more are coming): https://z3news.com/w/newly-discovered-document-reveals-fda-aware-dangers-covid19-vaccines-hid/
I know someone did it sense there is an added statement. which I like btw. 😊
I didn't mess up the description. I'm not even admin. xD Micah, my response to you will be a truck load of evidence of the things I've been telling you about injuries and deaths. R U Ready? Start with reading the first ones I send, and please give me time to give you all of it. (Btw, if you don't believe me after this, I'm sorry, but I don't know what I can do for you.) Please don't just not look at these. 🙏 Btw, these are FACTS I'm about to give you. FACTS.
it was all messed up, there was like garbled stuff, and the were showing in between
I fixed it, but please don’t add a bunch of weird, garbled up stuff.
Who messed with the group description?
Ok, in probably two weeks I am getting the vaccine. I will tell you exactly how I feel. No cap. My whole family has went through it and felt fine, but I will give you exactly how I feel.
1: if you said that they were being hidden, then how do you know that is is true? And if you have plenty of videos, how do people not know about it? how do you know that people who are investigating the vaccine are dying? there is no proof! Also some people could be killing them. So? it is bad, but that does not mean that that is the government! that does not mean that they are trying to hide something! Think the best of people, love them, and do not judge. that is God’s job. Also they are ‘immine’ because they put tags on there vacccines saying what the side affects could be! you are taking that )(very) small risk!
I have other things I can send you about many, many ppl who have been injured and have died from the C vaccine. But I'll give you time to respond to what I said below.
please wait for my response to you Vera
@Sethers I would like to know how I am not being respectful. I am not arguing that there are side affects sometimes, of course there are. But the vaccines were not created, and don’t, change your genes! For those with pre existing medical conditions, the chances are higher for side affects! But it’s not going to change you. The percent of people with side affects is so low, it’s more likely for you to get sick with Covid then to get sick with the vaccine!
Micah, this is one example of a 47yo lady (who had a 10 year old son) who was exposing vaccines, and she was found dead in her home in December. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzpdaJgjh8c&authuser=0 And there are plenty others that aren't being told about.
Btw, "Doctors, scientists and other medical experts involved with research into the Wuhan coronavirus (COVID-19) are mysteriously turning up dead all around the world in what appears to be a mass culling of people who know too much truth about the plandemic." (From Dec 30)
The reason you aren't finding out about this stuff is that the mainstream media isn't going to talk about it! It's just swept under the rug unless someone who cares finds out about it. Do you really think those who murder the ppl are going to be like, "Hey folks! Look over here! We just killed someone for exposing the vaccines!" Uh, no. This whole thing is done the way the mafia work. And I have plenty of evidence that videos exposing vaccines are being censored.
As for your questions about what side effects we've had...that's personal info, and you're just going to have to take my word for it.
Also food for thought, why has the vaccine industry been made immune to lawsuits from vaccine injured ppl??
I think for some people it gives bad side effects and others it doesn't...like my grandparents took it and they were fine, but a friend of ours took it and they were not
Micah, be respectful, remember what you told me? thanks!😉about the vaccine, my grandparents almost died so I agree with Vera
Um.... I don’t know anything about people being found dead, or about the other thing. 8 don’t know where you get your information. but every single person I know who has taken the vaccine... all..... 30 some I think.. have had no side affects and no problems what so ever! Also I have taken the flu vaccine and felt completely fine! @Vera what are these ‘side affects’ that your family has gotten?
Happy birthday, Nadia! 😀 🎈🎂
.... Micah... not again. 🤦🤦 Listen, it may not be everyone that has those things happen to them, but it certainly happens. How do you know I don't have basis? Videos that I could have sent you gave been taken down from the internet (by guess who), and even if they weren't, you wouldn't believe it anyway. My family and I believe we have been adversely affected by vaccines, and we now have to live with the consequences (unless God heals us). I don't exactly want to get back into this debate again🤦, but I really want to ask you this question, why, if vaccines are not evil, are videos exposing vaccines being censored and people exposing vaccines being found mysteriously dead??
You're welcome, Nadia! 😊 Neat!!
Not again.....xD Tho some vaccines do , do that. Maybe to 1 out of 100 people but I'm ALWAYS the 1 out of 100 people that will get the bad side effect from any medicine...*rolls eyes* its really annoying...
@Roger and @Vera this is untrue. It has been proven wrong and there is no basis for you argument.
But yeah I'll probably get married and have a few kids....idk about 10 tho xDDD
Happy Birthday, Nadia! I hope you have a very blessed and wonderful day! 🎉🎊
Sorry for so many posts, but yes, Micah, I do believe that vaccines will affect people's ability to have children. They even cause birth defects and injuries. 😔 Have you watched "Vaxxed I" and "The People's Truth"?
Agent, wow! that's a lot of siblings! And, yes! Adoption! I've thought about that many times. 😁
@Micah, yes! Vaccines (and the Covid vaccine specifically) do affect your ability to have children! 😯 It's very serious.
@Vera, 10 kids is a lot.... I have 11 sibs 😂
I definitely want to get married one day and have 2-3 kids but also foster/adopt
@Roger yes! 😂 10 kids Vera? 😯 So did you guys agree with Sethers about vaccination and how it affects you ability to have children?
Well, Micah, you probably should get married BEFORE having kids. 🙄😂
I already know I want to get married, and have at least 10 children. 😄 But if getting married would get in the way of my reaching the unreached peoples for Christ, I'd rather not get married. 😊
Don't worry, Nadia. 😂 You have a few years left to think about it. lol 😛 I do, too. 😁
I wanna have 1-3 children. oh... and get married 😂
Lol idk, I don't really think about that very much xP
So, while we're waiting for Sethers, random question: how many of you want to get married and have kids when you grow up? I do! ✋😁 I probably want to have like six to eight children.
I wonder where Sethers is....?? 🤔🤷♂️
Btw, everyone, I just created a new group called The Bible Brigade. Feel free to join it, if you'd like! Thanks! 😃
Neat! 😁 K, so now all we need is Sethers and he's not here! I'll have to see if I can get him over here.
Different places. Scriptoriums.com is where you can find more info
Yo where is it? or is it like in different places?
Umm, it’s a gathering of believers where you recite passages, play games and have fellowship basically... 😂
Hmm idk how to explain.....here's a link to the website..: https://scriptoriums.com/
@Agent: Do you want to explain? lol
Oh hi, Nadia! It's great to hear from you again. : D No problem! What is a Scriptorium, if you don't mind my asking. xD
AHhh! Sorry! I was at a Scriptorium xDWe got back a few days ago...xD
But I understand. A break is sometimes needed.
Oook. 😂 I must have read wrong then. Well, hopefully she'll come back soon. I would hate to see her go.
I know nothing about this... 😂 Nadia is either taking a break or she just forgot to check back..... I think.....
I would hope Nadia has the pro version by now. 😬 Cause I saw somewhere that they've updated Bible Memory so that you can't post unless you have pro. (I've seen Sethers talking on other groups, so I don't think that's the problem with him.)
interesting! I wonder where Nadia and Sethers went. 🤔 Hopefully they're just busy...
I went there like 3 years ago? It was good.
lol! I don't remember when the last time was that I went there! XD
Micah, what's your favorite restaurant?
Yeah, I don't think I have either. 🤔 Btw, BM and Micah (and anybody else), you ought'a join Bible Quizzers. 😉
I haven’t been to an actual restaurant for probably over a year.
Last time I want to a fast food restaurant was when I was on a car trip with my dad. that was a few months ago.
Oh yeah! Her cooking's the best! 😋😋😋
We actually don't eat out these days...we haven't for like, I don't know, 1 year? My mom's cooking is better tho. XD
Ooh how about while we wait, we debate the best restaurant?
Calm topic? 😂 Maybe we should do one about bed time or flowery meadows. 🤣🤣 Just kidding!
Alright, that's fine, Micah! 😉 I agree! And yes, you most certainly have that right.
What should we discuss next... Sethers? Iwant to give you a chance to pick a topic. Please make it a.... calm topic. 😂
I read some of it but I do not agree, and I doubt I will. This issue is more political then theological so I suggest we drop it. Sethers has been really angry when we have even closely started to talk about politics and I think that the issue most people have about Covid is mostly liked to politics. I have right to take the vaccine and wear a mask, just like you have the right to not. I also have the right to my opinion, especially when it is not contradicting the Bible.
And please start with the first article that I sent.
But PLEASE still read and watch the articles and videos Roger spent the time to put together. You might also want to put a little prayer into this. 😉
Secondly, seriously? You don't see how he's an evil man? Any person who despises humanity so much that he wants to kill off the population (and they've already been doing so) is an evil person. (If you don't believe me, please do some indepth research.) He is manning and planning things that are going on the world right now. I'll send you videos a little later about him talking about, as he says it, "I and Dr. Fauci" as having this world plan and the other one about him talking about depopulating the world. He's trying to depopulate it different ways. If you do your research thoroughly enough, and you REALLY care to know, you'll see what I'm talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if he was apart of the making of the vaccine.
First of all, I didn't say I condoned the way the person spoke in the article. Secondly the article I sent was another one about vaccine passports. The point the article was making was that Bill Gates had said that we would need digital vaccine passports that would be implanted into ppl. He and his followers now claim he never said that we’d need digital vaccine passports. And they edited it OUT of the video. But the Children's Health Defense tracked down that part the video and they were showing it in the article.
Also the person who wrote the article was either not a Christian, or one that didn’t read the Bible. it is not fine to call someone a horse or say some of the other stuff they said. Jesus would not, and he wouldn’t approve.
that article showed what he wanted to do.... so?
How do you say he’s trying to depopulate the earth?
isn’t he entitled to his own opinion?
Did he even create the vaccine?
Where does he admit that?
He admits that vaccines will be one of the ways to lower the population by 10-15%.
Btw, here's another one. https://deception.news/2020-12-28-yes-bill-gates-said-that-heres-proof.html There used to be a video with Bill Gates talking, but I don't know where it went. As the end of the article says, "Please make your own copy of these clips — as Gates’ power to disappear inconvenient facts is expanding every digital day."...unless it's on Instagram, but I can't check bc I don't have an account.
Micah, if you know anything about Bill Gates, you'd know he's an evil man. (and I don't say that lightly). He's out to depopulate the earth. And he's so smug about it, I just want to scream!
Ok, Micah. 😂 Well, it sounds like the mark of the beast to me, but please also see the others, too (when you get a chance, of course. 😉 And yes, TruNews is a reliable source.
@Sethers, here's a little verse for you: "Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king." 😊 Let's try not to get too riled up here. K? 😉
1st of all so what if Bill gates is making that vaccine? 2nd is that a reliable source?
And then here is the verse in Rev about the mark, just to give you a parallel: "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." (Rev 13:16-18)
I’ll read those later Roger thanks
TruNews reported on April 10th that: "A Bill Gates-funded vaccination trial is now underway with Inovio Pharmaceuticals. Unlike other vaccines that are injected into muscle tissue, this new vaccine will require only a “skin-deep shot.” It uses a section of the virus’ genetic code inside a synthetic DNA strand to invoke the body’s natural immune system to develop antibodies."
https://deception.news/2021-03-08-plot-to-turn-human-dna-into-a-programmable-operating-system.html
https://medicaltyranny.com/2021-03-11-medical-apartheid-israel-green-passport-barring-unvaccinated.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFEILn-5qcI&authuser=0
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/2021/april/pentagon-develops-microchip-that-detects-covid-when-inserted-under-skin
https://signs-ofthe-times.blogspot.com/2020/10/false-prophet-pope-francis-pushing-for.html
@Micah, I'll give you the info, but please take time to read and watch these if you actually want to know. Cause I have a feeling you won't want to look at all these if you don't really care. But this should be ample evidence for you. I’ll post these one at a time.
Sethers, please calm down. 🙂
Micah, you are the rude one😂 telling me what to do when you don’t even do it yourself, hypocrite is what you are sounding like. And this is not mean, if the truth is mean then I’m sorry
Actually I do, but I'm not even going to try to convince you, bc it probably wouldn't make any difference.
Honestly though, you have absolutely no proof of your claims
@Roger, if it doesn’t happen, then you will look stupid.
Wonky internet is annoying. 😒 😂
Btw, Micah, just want to say, in response to the mark of the beast thing: you just watch and see. 😉 You may think it sounds stupid, but just mark my words. ☝ And don't say I didn't tell you if you see it happen. 😉
our internet is wonky rn, I’ll send one later.
I’ll give you a link, one sec
Yes. but it was shown that the Covid vaccines were not made with that! I have even studied it before sense I have other friends who are saying the same thing!
Micah, the guy talking on the video is THE world's leading authority on vaccines. (it's only a four minute video, and please watch the whole thing.) The video is about vaccines in general. And, Micah, he's NOT conservative by ANY stretch! He's an atheist, and he's defending what he's done by using chopped up babies!! He had no remorse. (Btw, Trump is NOT my 'beloved President Trump' 😂. I actually don't agree with several things he's done, including trying to get the 'vaccine' out. He's not God, he's not perfect, and he's not my savior. But I voted for him, bc he would've been a lot better than Biden. But PLEASE, I beggeth you guys, let's NOT get into politics, either!! We're living for Jesus and to save souls. This world and its desires are passing away, but we are called to 'set our minds on things above'.)
Good morning! Sethers, please still see what Micah said. I'm just gonna respond to what he said to me. : D
10. Sethers, I love you and God loves you too. God loves Trump as well as Biden, and you should too. Also pray fro your enemies, not rip them. Obey God, love everyone, ACT LIKE YOU LOVE EVERYONE, and you will be just fine. Also Sethers, I am being really fed up with how you are talking to people. Please read the description again. Thanks and God bless.
9. I'm sorry all you people for doing so many posts, but I feel like Sethers will read all of them if they are separated and not all in one this time.
8. Please read my posts so you dont make a dumb comment about me being a supporter of Biden.
7. I also disapprove of what you are doing Sethers. Please do not have the attitude of 'I know everything and you are wrong'. That is not Jesus' attitude and we were called to be like Him.
6. I also disapprove of people who cloud their worldview/opinions by their political party instead of the holy spirit.
5. I disaprove of Donald Trump, but that doesnt have to mean I am liberal. I also disaprove of a lot that president Biden supports, ie, abortion.
4. I do not support abortion and never will.
3. I am neither democratic or republican.
2. I wouldnt vote even if I could.
1. I am 14 years old. I cannot vote.
You obviously havent been listening to what I have been saying, and you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
You are the one who voted for Biden because he was “the best choice” really? voting for babies to be killed in the womb?!? disgusting
Dude, you are telling me to chill out and yet you are getting mad?!?😂
And why are you guys so uptight about the virus anyway? Your beloved 'president' Trump took it
But im assuming hes conservative
Im not going to watch the video rn sense i dont have time
What about the people who make the vaccines? And what vaccine is this?
But Micah, you really want proof that aborted fetal tissue is used in vaccines? Here you go. right from the mouth of Dr. Stanley Plotkin the world’s leading authority on vaccines. https://youtu.be/Y-RXDJCP_c8
Let's please not keep talking about Covid. It's not getting us anywhere.
First of all, it was shown that the vaccines do not have aborted tissue in them. Look it up. You are just listening to rumors then saying them as facts. Also the vaccine has killed maybe 3 people. That is soooooooooooooo bad compared to covid! WOW. (sarcasm) Millions of people have died from covid! My dad works at a hospital and gets emails from the work every day. They have to turn people away because they don't have enough room! Someone we knew in Michigan had to be air lifted to another state! Also Sethers, where are you getting your information? This was a rumor when they created the Influenza vaccine! FOR REAL! They believed it cause Muslim women to become sterile! Also I am not a democrat Sethers! I am not a Republican either! I am a follower of Jesus Christ and YOU SHOULD TOO. I do not have Hebraic roots, I am 100% American. Also I am part of the Church of God Seventh Day. Also the mark of the beast? Are you serious? I am not even going to respond to this! Its just soooo stupid.
Micah, just curious, are you apart of Hebraic roots? If not, what denomination are you? I'm interested to know. :)
Oh, ok...I think most vaccines at least have to use aborted fetal tissue in the making...that's to my understanding.
I haven't looked into the DNA thing
You mean the aborted fetal tissue or the DNA changes?
I think only Johnson and Johnson had that but Idr
Ok, so for a minute, forget about Covid; forget about whether this 'vaccine' works or not (as a matter of fact, it CHANGES the DNA of the recipient. We've also seen several videos about people having terrible shaking after getting it.) So put all that aside right now and think.... did anybody realize that vaccines have ABORTED FETAL TISSUE IN THEM??!! I mean THAT alone should make you want to flee from this thing! Never mind talking about unclean foods!!
Yes, while Sethers still needs to be respectful, I do believe he's right. The vaccine can cause infertility. Also, he's right about Covid. If it's so dangerous, how come we're not all dead? I mean, my sisters have been working out in restaurants and stuff around lots of people and they haven't even gotten Covid, nevermind died from it. I don't deny that that SOME people have had Covid and died from it, but it definitely hasn't been millions, that's for sure. Also, people have walked into emergency rooms and found them EMPTY! No Covid patients! So, in reality, it doesn't match the hype. But, debating about it is probably not going to do any good anyways.
Millions of people have in fact died from COVID @Sethers... Please remember to be respectful and kind to others even if their beliefs differ from yours
Micah, look up facts before you share your opinions, millions of people haven’t died from COVID
That’s your belief, maybe one day God will open your eyes😉
Ok Micah, with how much you go out to buy stuff with your parents like go to the store, you should of been dead including all of us
Wow BM! I guess you are having no children, I’m sorry! the vaccine prevents the chance to have children
Ohh! (I thought you were talking about Israel. 😂) Yeah! I'd say.
Ugh! 🤦♂️ This delayed messaging really makes things confusing!
Really? Doesn't surprise me, much, though.
@Vera : I mean the Dems constantly change their views when it suits them. aka the masks
I meant about your uncles. Sorry--it's the delayed messages
They're currently trying to make D.C a state 😑
Yes, Nadia, I'm sorry to hear that. 😟
@Vera: they're constantly changing their views !
In Israel, ppl can't be apart of society like others unless they take the vaccine.
@Roger I can see that happening.
@BM, I feel bad for you, too. Just to let you know, the side effects from the vaccine don't always occur immediately. Sometimes it takes a while, but it can definitely cause death, and it is CERTAINLY more dangerous than Covid. Some people have died just MINUTES after getting the vaccine. But, if you and Micah want to believe the way you do about it, that's up to you, and I can't force you.
I know, Nadia!?? When did they (the Dems)?
Nadia, I'm sorry about your losses. 😔
Yeah, Nadia. We're just a little more anti-vaccine, that's all. 😉 And I'm also very indignant of the damage this is causing to people's lives. I wouldn't want to get the vaccine for anything. Also, I believe this vaccine is leading up to the mark of the beast. They are talking about coming out with "vaccine passports" and I can just see that quickly turning into a chip you have to have inside of you in order to buy or sell that shows if you've gotten the vaccine or not. That's just my opinion. 😕
@Vera: On of them was, the others no..
Ok, here's my opinion on the vaccine: I don't really care. If you want to take it, good for you. If it makes you feel better, go for it. If you don't want to take it, then don't. Will it help? Imo no. Will it hurt, possibly. But right now I could go outside and get hit by a car (unintentionally) or I could take the vaccine and die (unintentionally, bc I didn't think it would kill me) That's just my opinion, I've seen ppl say lots of ppl have died and I've seen ppl say a few have died. So I don't really care either eway...BUT I am not getting the vaccine bc...well its not necessary and I DO NOT agree with people FORCING people to take it to go on planes, ect. bc everyone should have their own choice. Also, when did the Dems stop believing in "my body my choice" when they started trying to force the vaccine on ppl? Just my opinion, I don't care enough about it to debate so....xD
I'm not trying to offend anyone here. I'm just really upset about the damage and deception that has been spread by the greedy.
I'm sorry to hear that you and Micah have lost relatives and friends to this. 😟 I'm curious to know, were any of them on ventilators?
Yes, it IS real, it has killed some people, (including some of my uncles...) but it is time for ppl to put it behind them .
Sorry, Nadia! I was talking to Micah.
I know people who have died from it as well...but it's time to move on...
... wow...our beliefs are as far apart as the north pole is from the south. I didn't say Covid wasn't real. I said that it's NOT what their making it out to be.
My dad is getting it, just bc ppl pick fights with him at work (he's a truck driver) but he doesn't really care either way
Wait what do you mean Vera? there is absolutely no proof that Covid is fake. And I feel really insulted when people I know have died of it. Masks don’t kill, vaccinations don’t kill (99.99999 chance of surviving (scary!) ) but Covid has killed millions of people! It’s proven that it’s more dangerous to walk on a sidewalk then to take the vaccine.
Wow, Bible Memorizer, I feel so sorry for you. 😕 Truly, I do. You haven't been told the truth, and even if I send you a MOUNTAIN of evidence, I know I probably wouldn't convince you. And you're how old??
I’m getting a vaccination in a week. most of my family has already had it along with a lot of my friends. they all have only experienced at maximum tiredness and a sore arm.
SDA’s do not have a denomination preference, but from where I see it only a few people have died who have got the vaccine, while the rate is much higher if you get covid. and yes I do believe that covid is real. you can see its virus with a microscope and it does not match any other one. this is a new disease.
I wear masks and they haven’t killed me yet. a piece of cloth over your mouth doesn’t cause damage to the lungs. doctors have been using them for years.
XD That's neat! Yes! we can't find s church that believes as we do! Most Pentecostal churches around here are Unitarian!
That's nice!!! We're going to start staying home and watching Family Worship Center (that church I posted a video from ) bc we are not getting fed at this church we are at now and we all want to rip our hair out lol
We do house church... as a family. My dad likes to teach the Word. 😄
@ Sethers: Yeah, we go to a Baptist church to....
But Nadia, I think you and I would agree about most theological topics. 😉
I agree. But we might want to back off on the posts for now so that Micah isn't overwhelmed when he comes back.
Which is totally against the Bible, the Bible says be fruitful and multiply
My comment was to Nadia, btw.
Correct Vera! it’s Satan using them to control the population
Go to a Baptist church with my parents but I’m what I said i am on the comment below
Ummm, not sure...😂 we might have a few differences. We just aren't really officially apart of any denomination.
Oh okay! (is there a difference?)
We basically are too, Nadia. 😁 We tend to be more non-denominational, though. But we are Bible-believing, born again, blood bought children of God.
We are sort of Pentecostal, too, Nadia. We are Trinitarian Holiness Pentecostal.
@Sethers, you're so right! They are just changing the numbers and counting other deaths as "Covid" to hike up the numbers! 😂 The overall death rate has STAYED THE SAME SINCE "COVID" STARTED!
@Micah, Covid does exist is some sort, but its definitely not what they're saying it is. They are using fear mongering to manipulate people. It's really nothing more than the common cold. 😂 I mean, there's probably a much stronger likely-hood that someone would die in a car crash than die from Covid!! 😂
Exactly, Sethers. What denomination is everyone? Micah, I really thought you were SDA this whole time.😂
@Sethers: Lol ik xD The flu just disappeared
First of all. Let's get this clear. Covid MAY be real (I think there may be SOMETHING to it, but it's certainly not AT ALL as bad as they're hyping it. Two. The "vaccine" is not a vaccine by definition. It's a gene therapy, and it has killed COUNTLESS people. It's another tactic to kill of the population.
Guess what! COVID solved all of the issues we had like the flu and colds! COVID just happened to solve all other illnesses 😂
Yeah, but let's not get into politics here. I'm a Jesus-ican, 😂 lol, not really a Republican or Dem (although I definitely don't condone the dems)
Which has caused rocks to be thrown at our window 😑
So they had to remove it, can you not see what’s going on?? plus, the vaccines have not been out for a year yet, why should we trust it?
btw we still have our Trump flag flying in front of our house 😁😇
Dude, can you not see that this is all political, the Johnson and Johnson vaccine had problems and so they are like oh my! oops, didn’t know that it causes blood clot issues
I think it's just time to move on.
That's absolutely right, Nadia! Btw, I'm in NC. Our governor is really being oppressive with the lockdowns and masks and stuff. @Sethers, that serious! @Micah, I don't know why you don't see thru all this baloney that's going on, cuz I can see it as plain as day.
Dude, you definitely voted for Biden and you are a liberal I’m guessing🤦♂️
Oops sorry xD @Miciah: At the beginning I did and I ended up getting COVID so now I don't. I want him to lift the WHOLE THING and if ppl want to wear masks, that's their personal preference.
He just did it to get it off his shoulders.
So wait, you want him to force the stores to lift the mask thing? that’s against their right!
Um... Nadia... do you even wear a mask?
No, he says hes a Christian apparently.
And the vaccines help more people then they hurt
I'm from Indiana....and our governer just "lifted the mask mandate" but said that stores "can keep it if they wish" so it ain't never gonna end
But masks do do something Nadia
@Micah: Well, we agree that Jesus died on the cross for our sins right so we can be saved, right? That's all that matters 😂
Cuz our Govender hasn’t changed his mind
It's all politics now. First masks help, then no they don't, then yes they do, then wear double masks, then don't, now do, how wear triple masks....UGH
Yikes! @Sethers: My grandpa took it and so for he's been ok....
😂😂😂 Amen! LOL! Up till a few month ago my fam had been wearing them for respect to the older people who were freaking out, but I finally decided Enough, it's been a year and, enough. So now everyone here glares at us whenever we go into the stores 😂 Bu seriously, if you think about it....i mean....its really....kind of........stupid............no offence to anyone who want tto wear them lol
So a big nooooo nooooo to vaccines and masks, it’s become wayyyy to political
My grandparents took the vaccine🤦♂️ and they almost died of heart issues
Yeah, I’m glad someone is done with the stupid masks and the vaccine
Wohoo! Preach it, Nadia! 😜😁 I am TOTALLY FED UP WITH MASKS! The vaccine is definitely a big ❌❌❌❌!!!
Yaaaayy!!! 😁😁😁😁 To my understanding, SDAs don't believe in getting vaccines, so Micah and Bible Memorizer will probably agree....😜
And the vaccine is getting oppressive
I'm so annoyed with masks.
But, seriously, though. This whole COVID is a hoax!! Masks are VERY bad for your health, SO TAKE THEM OFF! The vaccines are killing people. DO NOT TAKE THE VACCINES! I WARN YOU! PLEASE! I could send you lots of information about all this, but it would fill up the message wall like crazy! 😂
No! No! No! NOOOOO! Booo!! to masks and vaccines! 😂😂
Prolly the covid.....speaking of which....what do you all think about the COVID? Should we still wear masks? Should we take the vaccine?
A lot of ppl got sick at BB last year (2 years ago)
Um Roger... it was all our points, and I haven’t had a cold in over three years. My family got strep throat and I was on of the only people not to get it. My sisters got sick at BB and I was one of the only people not to get it. I probably eat the most healthy foods in my family, Yes if you don’t eat unhealthy foods you will be healthy. So this debate is over.... because it really was never a debate.
*too.... (Roger, let them respond. Remember the one or two posts rule😉)
If we're just debating one's personal health decision, I think I'm ready to end to. But Bible Memorizer, I still would like to hear why you contradicted yourself down below.
😂🤦♂️ Yeah, that didn't really go anywhere. Except that I think I made my point PRETTY clear. 😄
Yes, the debate is overrrrr
And btw, Micah and BM, our family DOESN'T eat pork or shrimp or any of those foods you say are "unclean". You know why? Because of HEALTH reasons! 😁 NOT because of religious reasons. And just FYI, we have noticed a dramatic improvement in our health since we stopped eating that and other things like table salt, white flour, white sugar, and dairy. I mean, I haven't had a cold in over a year! 😂 So, what I'm saying is that it comes down to a matter of health, really. Also, remember, "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." (1 Cor. 10:31) 😉 So, basically the debates over right?
Bible Memorizer, you just said that in your opinion, if someone eats unclean food, he's breaking God's law. Then you said that eating unclean food is not a sin, just a matter of health. That's quite contradictory in my opinion.
🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦 Wow! We're really getting somewhere here. 🤦🤦🤦. 🏃⭕🏃
I mean, yeah! 😂This is really just turned into a matter of what's healthy and what's not. I still believe though that ALL foods are clean and that we can eat whatever we want as long as we pray and give thanks for it. I mean, this verse really says it all: ""They forbid people to marry and ORDER THEM TO ABSTAIN FROM CERTAIN FOODS, WHICH GOD CREATED TO BE RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING BY THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND WHO KNOW THE TRUTH. FOR EVERYTHING GOD CREATED IS GOOD, AND NOTHING IS TO BE REJECTED IF IT IS RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING, BECAUSE IT IS CONSECRATED BY THE WORD OF GOD AND PRAYER. If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.” (1 Tim 4:3-6, emphasis added) So, that's the BOTTOM LINE.
So you guys believe that eating those foods are unhealthy, I agree, some foods are unhealthy, doesn’t mean I’m going to stop eating them
Oh, so debate is over then😂 it has become now a matter of health
That we're debating what's healthy and what's not
Adventist’s believe that eating no meat or unclean meats is the best way to go. that’s why Adventist’s are some of the healthiest people in the world. “Seventh-Day Adventists live longer and have 30% lower cancer risks compared to other Americans thanks to the religion's strict diet and lifestyle practices, study finds. Seventh-Day Adventists have a lower cancer risk and a longer life expectancy than the general US population, a new study suggests.”
So, no, I do not believe it is sinning to eat unclean things, just unhealthy.
Mark 7:14-19 talks about Jesus saying if food that is unclean defies your body. Defile as in κοινόω, or to make common or unclean. this is talking about if food that is unclean is breaking Gods law and therefore should be avoided at all costs. Jesus says that you can still eat it, and it is not a sin. why God made this rule was so that people can be healthier and stronger, not as a barrier or separation from other nations.
To set them apart from other nations. (you still haven't answered my question)
Why do YOU think God made it unclean for the Israelites Nadia?
also I've eaten what you consider "unclean" food and have never gotten sick off it xD
Ok, so....it doesn't matter that Jesus made it clean??
@Nadia This is my opinion: God said it in the beginning so I will obey it, you don’t have to. God must have had a good reason, so I will not take any chances. It is not a matter of salvation. And @Sethers God said it, does his mind ever change? And if Jesus had made it clean, why weren’t the disciples eating it?
@Micah: If Jesus "declared all foods clean" what does that mean?
Your argument is a matter of health
Um... if god told us we shouldn’t eat those foods for our health, I will not. If God suggests something, we would be pretty stupid to ignore it sense he knows everything. Eating out is bad for you Sethers, it is. Roger Roger Roger! I am NOT saying... do you even understand what I am saying? you are having the wrong argument right now. Also, God did not create animals to eat, he provided the animals for them after they sinned. But the animals God said they couldn’t eat in the beginning are ‘unclean’ for some reason or another. Also God does not change his mind, so they must not be good for people to eat.
Micah, you said that “those animals were made unclean for our health, by God.” so does that mean that eating out is bad too??
Micah, I never said I couldn’t eat anything😂
Well, mostly bc most of the foods He said they couldn't eat are not healthy, because some of those are animals that eat trash and other really disgusting stuff. Ok, so far you haven't given me ANY verses, but I just found another one that EXPLICITY says what is true. This is the BOTTOM LINE: "They forbid people to marry and ORDER THEM TO ABSTAIN FROM CERTAIN FOODS, WHICH GOD CREATED TO BE RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING BY THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND WHO KNOW THE TRUTH. FOR EVERYTHING GOD CREATED IS GOOD, AND NOTHING IS TO BE REJECTED IF IT IS RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING, BECAUSE IT IS CONSECRATED BY THE WORD OF GOD AND PRAYER. If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.” (1 Tim 4:3-6, emphasis added) I mean, Micah, what is so hard to understand about that??
Question : Why did God declare shrimp, pig, and other animals unclean?
Why do I feel like this is turning into more of a health food debate? 😂 Micah, what I'm saying is that ALL foods are clean for us who are in Christ, BECAUSE Jesus said it plainly in Mark 7:19! However, (and I stated this right at the beginning) even though all foods are clean, thus meaning we get eat whatever foods we want, doesn't mean that they are all healthy. I understand that. So I'm not saying we have to go out and eat duck heart and monkeys' brains just bc they are clean. However, if someone really wants to go out there and do that, God doesn't have any problem with it and they're not disobeying him in any way. Here's another verse that proves my point: "'Everything is permissible”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”–but not everything is constructive....Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,
for, 'The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.'" (1 Cor. 10:23, 25-26)
I completely believe in obeying God's Word. Don't get me wrong. And I do think that there are some foods that are NOT healthy. (There's a reason that Roger and my family and I don't eat pork or shrimp as a diet. 😉) All I'm saying is that we are under Christ's law and the Bible CLEARLY (as clearly as it can possibly get) says that JESUS DECLARED ALL FOODS CLEAN. (Mark 7:14-19) So if someone does eat shrimp or pork their NOT sinning.
I just prefer to obey God’s word. You don’t have to.
They might get sick. You could get Trichinosis.
Sethers, you are one to talk. I never said I couldn’t Roger, I just think I shouldn’t, so I don’t. I can also ride a scareboard, but I don’t, for my own safety (because I would hurt myself very badly ☹️) And I never said they weren’t for the Israelites. Also Sethers, why couldn’t you eat anything? I could go out there and eat duck heart (which is considered a food somewhere) and it wouldn’t be against the law. The point is that those animals were made unclean, for our health, by God. And Gods word never changes.
Micah, I agree with Roger. If it's not a salvation issue, I'm curious to know, what would happen if someone did eat 'unclean' food?
😐😂 @Micah, I totally don't get your point about the shoe. A shoe isn't food, so that isn't even in the picture here. 😂 Also, what Jesus said WAS literal. What's not literal about it? Also.....so....then why can't YOU eat pork, shrimp, etc. if that was just for the Israelites?? And last time I checked, you weren't Jewish. 😉
So we can eat whatever is what you just said Micah
Snap out of it Micah. Chill out
@Roger there are many things that Jesus says that are not taken literally. Do you think if you ate a shoe it would defile you? No. BUT God put those laws, in the beginning, for the Israelites for a reason. I AM NOT ARGUING OVER YOUR RIGHT DUDE! I plainly said that it was not a matter of salvation, you CAN eat it, but God said no for a reason for the Israelites, just like the sabbath.
You're absolutely right, Nadia! 😂
There's no argument, unless you want to go aroudn in circles. Which is fine....
🤦♂️ *shakes head in disbelief*
What does it mean to you, Bible Memorizer?
...me too, Nadia...I wonder what it DOES mean...well, to Micah, at least.🤔
But yeah, it seemed pretty plain to me.....
People like to go around in circles 🤷♀️ that's part of debating ig
You're kidding me, Micah! 😂 You can't possibly say that that verse means something else! It means what it says!
And that verse means something else but I’ll get into that later
I’m busy rn but locusts are ok
@Micah, please don't get distracted by our small talk here. 😉 I'd still like to see what you have to say for the verse I gave. Thanks!
😋They might be good with honey on them. 🤣
Besides the fact that they're bugs....
So I'm guessing you guys don't eat locusts either? 🤔 They're actually not bad..
So, Micah and BM, here is my verse that says it all, and it's right from the lips of Jesus himself: “there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. [If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.’] When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. And He said to them, ‘Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?’ (THUS HE DECLARED ALL FOODS CLEAN.)” (Mark 7:15-19, emphasis added) See? There’s nothing confusing about that. ALL FOODS ARE CLEAN. I mean, there's basically nothing left to debate about. 😂
Ok. So, most everyone has stated his opinion, so I think we should move into the debating part.
I agree, Roger xD @Vera: That's what I meant ;))
Diddo.
And Nadia, that would be a good topic to debate about at some future point. 😉
My belief on this topic is that ALL foods are clean. However we have to realize that not all foods are healthy (obviously), so we still have to be conscious of what we’re eating. Also we should abstain from food sacrificed to idols and from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. Aside from that, we can ultimately eat whatever we want, and it will not make us unclean.
Jw what denomination is everyone?
Also Pre-destination (Calvinism) is a good topic for debate
Sorry, that sounded weird 😂😂 My opinion is the Lord has made animals and given us dominion over them and people can eat any animal that is....edible. I never really thought much on this subject so, Idt I'll have much to say xD
yeah that’s my opinion, too.
My opinion is that obeying the clean and unclean is not a matter of salvation, it is a law that God made that we SHOULD follow. I believe that God gives things for us for our protection, not always our pleasure/enjoyment. The clean and unclean is one of these kind of laws that God put into place. So pig, shellfish, clams, shrimp, and other animals God told us (and never took back) to not eat we shouldn’t. And for peters vision, God NEVER called back the clean and unclean, he said what I say is clean is clean. Did he say that the animals were clean? Also he was making a point about the gentiles. If God came in a vision and put a person in front of you and said “kill” and you say “no” and he then says “what I tell you to do you must obey” that is a lesson, not telling you that you can now kill people. This is my opinion. ✌️
Ok, so we'll all meet back here tomorrow. Whoever wants to state his position tonight (without giving verses, yet, or starting the debate), feel free to do so, but Roger and I'll wait till 2morrow. 😉 Goodnight for now on our end!
Count me in. I’m not promising I’ll really be active in this debate but I do have some things to say on this subject 😂
Wait a minute, Bible Memorizer! 😂 We haven't even officially started yet. Roger and I don't have too long before we need to get to bed. So maybe, if everyone else is okay with it, we can wait till tomorrow to actually start. (?) But (I know this is Micah's group) maybe we should first state our positions before giving verses. 😁 What y'all think?
oh I see what we are doing. Who here is a vegetarian? Is it just me then.....ok.
Alright! Now we're cooking! (Not literally XD)
You do that, Micah. 😉 Let's find out what's up with him.
👍 now I’ll go see if Bible Memorizer is just not looking in this group....
I’m in for clean vs unclean
Be patient, my brother! 😂😜 There's no rush...
Yeah. Where in the world are Bible Memorizer and Sethers?! *taps foot impatiently* 🤔😕
that should be interesting
Ok. That's what I thought. 😉
Yah, what you eat and dont eat
Nadia, I think the thing about clean and unclean is about animals...?...I think..😂
Hmm idk what the debate between clean and unclean is....but I don't want to debate on the Sabbath...so whatever ig xD
I vote for either...I'll see what everybody else wants to do, and I'm fine on whichever one has most votes. Yes, of course we'll wait for the others. Roger, how could you have forgotten to include the other vital members of the debate?! 😄
And we should waitto see if BM, Vera, and Sethers want to join in.
Um, yeah....I DID join that group. 😏...buuuut then I left. Hehe! 😁 But maybe I'll rejoin at some point soon. As far as the debate topic goes, we'll make our final decision after Nadia "casts her vote." 😁 Which debate topic did you vote for, Micah? (out of the two I gave)
and if you guys could join the group GAFTT
Yeah, maybe not the thing about the Sabbath, but MAYBE about clean and unclean. Or what about a debate if hell is eternal or not? How about whichever debate we go with, we first have each side state their position (without giving any verses yet) on the topic BEFORE the debate starts, just so that there's no confusion on where each person stands on the matter. What do y'all think?
sabbath debates gives me headaches not that please 😂😂
What about the clean and unclean, or sabbath?
Anyone have any debatable subjects? 😂
😂 I know what you mean.....
Neat! The three last ones are about the same ages as my brothers and I. 😄
I have a 4 yo brother, 7 yo sister, 12 yo sister, 16 yo brother, and a 18 yo sister
That's interesting, Nadia! 😃
I have two younger brothers, 12 and 8 xD
Oh, ok! 😄 Btw, do you have any siblings? I have a younger bro (12), and three older sisters (Vera being one of them) and then two others that are 20 and 22. :)
No, but pretty close xD May 4th
Yeah, Nadia, that is neat!
So, your b-day is on May 1, also, Nadia? That's neat! 😂
Oh may 1st is next week!!! @_@ I forgot....that means my b-day is next week xDD
I'm turning 16 next week (May 1) 😁
hehe....I'm 14 next month 🤣
😅 how old r u?...Micah and Nadia...if you don't mind my asking.
Ah ok xD LOL Micah 😂 aren't you a senior this year? (in BB)
Well, even if I wanted to join, I wouldn't be able to be in it for long because I'll be 19 this summer. xD
@Vera: Yeah, it's not too hard xD
@Micah: Hopefully I make it 😝😂
Hope to see you at nats Nadia
That's interesting, Bible Memorizer! XD you come on here to say that and realize, "Oh wait--they've already ended it and are having small talk afterwards." XD
Really, Nadia? I always thought, "It must be SO HARD!" 😂
That's alright about the email thing! 😊 I totally understand. It's fine just talking on here.
I was literally coming on to say that I would like the debate to be over. anyways I did have a fun time. thanks for you guys perspective. 🙂
Idk....my mom probably won't want me emailing someone she knows nothing about...
It's def not hard!! Unless you want to make Finals.....xDD The Summer Study is really easy going unless you want to qualify....which you don't have to xPP
@Nadia, that would be great!😛 but I'm probably not going to join either--I don't know how you all do it 😂--But maybe at some point, we can connect through email....maybe?...we'll have to see if it would work, bc I know neither you nor I want to just put our email out there for anyone to see...but we'll see...
😉 Well, I'm probably not gonna sign up for Bible Bee. Too hard. 😅
But if you sign up for Bible Bee I might be able to meet you much sooner 😛😛😛😛 @everyone who is not
@Vera and Roger: Yes!! It's so nice to know I'm not the only one out there, haha!! Looking forward to seeing you all on the other side!
😂 Whew! We've been debating for a week and a half straight, on three different topics. Thanks to all who made this debate possible. And Nadia, as Roger sort of says, I really appreciate you. 😊 It's encouraging to find someone who agrees. See you at the pearly gates!
And as an encouragement to everyone, keep following the Lord, press on toward the prize, and finish the race. 😄
😂 And I will meet you in the New Heaven and the New Earth/Kingdom after Jesus returns 😂 🤷♂️ one of us is right (and I think it’s me) but it doesn’t really matter. Thank you Mr Roger... nope. Thank you Roger for the awesome debate, can’t wait to d9 it again (on a different topic of course. ✌️
😉 Acknowledgments: Special thanks to Vera and Nadia for their help and support in this debate! 😁 (Also, thanks to you, too, Sethers, for when you backed me up 🙂) Btw, Nadia, I can hardly believe that we believe almost exactly the same way! 😄 (I say "almost", bc there might be some little thing we don't agree on exactly the same way, that we don't know about, but DON'T want to try to find what that is 😅) But I'd say we agree on about 99% of our beliefs. Vera and I can't wait to meet you in heaven someday. (she and I are bro and sis btw if you didn't already catch that) 😁 And thanks also to Micah and BM, also, for debating with me. 😂 If it weren't for them, I wouldn't have had anyone to debate with on here in the first place. 😉
Btw Sethers... I am not mad. A little frustrated at u rn, but not mad.
Yeah, I think so, too, Micah. We could go on with this debate for who knows how long and still not change each other's minds. However, I have no hard feelings towards you or BM. 😉😁 I also enjoyed this debate, and hopefully we can have another one about something else sometime down the road. (For now, I want to take a little break. 😅)
Also remember my second fav verse : Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ, God forgave you. -Ephesians 4:32
Sethers... Roger was saying what he thought verse meant and assuming that to be correct. if you always do that you will never learn, and you will say the same thing over and over again expecting the other person to get your point. Also I think that we should just move on from this discussion, I enjoyed it, but I can tell some people are getting a little angry. Remember: we are all Christians and have the holy spirit, let God guide you, not human flesh. Nobody’s changing anyone’s minds anytime soon (I think that made sense? 🤷♂️) Thanks and God bless ✌️
Sethers........................................
You're right about what I'm trying to do, Sethers! But please try to be a little nicer. 😉 We're not trying to become enemies here.
BM, Roger is not giving his opinion about scripture, he is simply giving you the scripture and then telling you what it means, SAME THING YOU ARE DOING FYI
Wow Micah, you are really mad😂 I definitely can tell! stop being a jerk and have a normal person discussion, thanks Micah
Um...first of all I DO know how to debate and I'm basing it off of scripture, not just my opinion. And I am examining your opinion and showing FROM THE SCRIPTURES how your point is wrong. Now, @BM, I'm NOT saying that parable is true just bc Jesus used a name. (even though I do believe it is a true story) What I'm saying is that what he mentioned about hell and Abraham's bosom in the parable IS true, bc Jesus would not say all that if it were not true, just to make some other point, or else that would just be confusing! Beside the other scriptures I gave back that up! If he was just "making a point", then you could just say that with the parable of the sheep and goats (Mat 25) he was just "making a point" and that the judgement doesn't happen, which IT DOES. But here are more scriptures that prove the saints are in heaven BEFORE the resurrection. Who are the great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1)? Don't say they're on earth, bc from context THEY'RE NOT. Who are the twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4) mentioned in Rev. ALL OVER THE PLACE AND BEFORE THE RESURRECTION? What about this verse? "Then I heard EVERY CREATURE in HEAVEN and on earth and UNDER THE EARTH and on the sea, and ALL that is in them, singing:..." (Rev 5:13, emphasis added) Who are the souls under the altar IN HEAVEN? (Rev 6:9) Who is the man who showed John around in heaven? (Rev 22:8-9) He said he was a "FELLOW SERVANT WITH YOU AND WITH YOUR BROTHERS THE PROPHETS..." Please answer to ALL OF THESE. See, one post! 😉😁
Exactly BM! Please only do one post tho, yesterday I cam on and read 105 posts! 😅 you can make bigger spaces for different posts if you want.
Showing how the story makes sense does not prove it’s real.
Also the parable no the rich and poor man cannot be proven true because Jesus gives the poor man a name.
Ecc. 9:5 says that the dead “know nothing” not “forgotten their old life”
when the Bible says “them” it is referring to us, not just our bodies. if the body is separated from the soul and it is I heaven then a referral of where your bodies were you would not say “we are underground in the dirt” you would say “it is underground in the dirt”
it does not contradict the Bible, it contradicts what your perspective is on the Bible.
I need you to do it right, and to only do one post at a time please to leave the other person time to respond
You do not know how to debate Roger. You can have your basis off of your opinion! you have to examin my opinion and say how a verse proves it wrong! Hou have to use my opinion like this... “so you say bleh bleh bleh, how do you explain that with this verse? this is how I interpret it... bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh” that is how. this is what you are doing. “this verse shows this, and this is what it means, because this is what it means, you are wrong.” that is wrong, and makes the discussion super hard.
it doesn’t contradict other parts of the Bible. and it never says that the dead forget about life on earth. it says they “know nothing”.
As for Ecclesiastes 9:4–6, I’m NOT saying that Solomon was lying! It shows in the following verses what it means by “knowing nothing”. “And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.” Their life on earth is as a distant memory. It doesn’t mean that they are not conscious at all. You always take things literally in the Bible, unless they cannot be taken literally. And since that part about “knowing nothing” would contradict other Scriptures if taken literally, then you cannot take it literally.
@BM, as for Dan 12:2, our bodies are asleep in the dust, not our souls. Because our bodies are DUST! (Gen 3:19) And our souls are NOT. And our bodies do not awake by themselves, but our souls return to them and that is the only way our bodies can awaken! And our bodies will not have been in heaven at all, up until the resurrection, so they’re not “awaking to something they’ve been in for thousands of years.” Jesus “will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Phil 3:21b)
Ok, first I’m going to respond to what Micah said last night about Jesus after he died. Micah, Jesus absolutely DID go to Sheol after he died. It says it right in 1 Pet. 3:19: “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;” and in Eph. 4:8-9: “This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.” (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?”Also, as Vera already said earlier, there are two places in Sheol, as said in Luke 16 (don’t just say that was a parable), one for the righteous dead (“Abraham’s bosom”, which is a place of COMFORT) and one for the wicked dead (hell). When Jesus preached in “prison,” He was preaching to the righteous dead and then when He “ascended on high, he led captives in his train…” and now those righteous dead are in heaven and all the righteous dead who died after that go to heaven. The wicked dead are still in hell, though.
Yes, but the whole reason I gave you 1 Thess. 5:23, is to show you the thing about our spirit, soul, and body being separate things.
now can you read the comments I said this morning and respond to those.
It says “being preserved blameless until the coming of our lord Jesus. that seems a lot like the resurrection.
either way, it says nothing about being alive or being in heaven at all in that verse.
In 1 Thes. 5:23, it's speaking of people who are still living and being kept blameless, not preserved as in mummification or refrigeration.
Our bodies ARE APART of us.
Does it say that your bodies are dead? no it says WE are asleep, not our bodies.
1 Thess. 5:23 furthers my point. it says Soul, Spirit, and body, PRESERVED. When you preserve something you store it away.
That was about the SPIRIT and SOUL thing.
I'm saying that when our bodies are asleep/dead, our souls are in heaven, living with Jesus!
Hebrews 4:12 has nothing to do with death.
Exactly! We are living with him when we are dead!
You cannot be talking with Jesus when you are asleep.
"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing SOUL AND SPIRIT, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)
it says that we are living to gather with Him when we are asleep.
Is says whether we are AWAKE OR ASLEEP.
Also, spirits, souls, and bodies ARE separate parts of us: ""May your whole SPIRIT, SOUL, AND BODY be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus" (I Thessalonians 5:23, emphasis added)
We may live together with Him, but that says nothing about immediately being with Him after death.
1 Thes. 5:10: "He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM." (emphasis added) That shows that even when we are dead, we are WITH HIM the whole time.
Just because it is new does not mean you should turn it away.
And you can’t just say that what I am saying is “a whole new gospel” and therefore you should not believe it.
You have yet to point out a verse that says that. every verse that you have said is either about the resurrection, a parable, not talk about death, or even not say anything about resurrecting at all.
so you are saying a person can never die?
the spirit = the person/Gods breathe in man
I can answer, it is a spirit.... literally I just googled it 👌 and a spirit is the soul.
when a body is dead, it's dead. but a soul can not die.
In your eyes it is, because you have different beliefs. but you shouldn’t base other people’s beliefs of your beliefs, you should base them on the Bible and see if they work. And please be kind and respectful in your responses. Also I can tell you how to talk, because I am in charge of this group. i am not going to abuse the power, but I do want everyone to be nice Sethers.
I’m sorry BM, but this sounds like a whole new gospel other then the gospel
But here he is talking about the dead, and no fools are in this area.
Solomon(I think he wrote the book) has no reason to lie here. the other verse that was stated before was talking about fools, and in their perspective, yes, money will solve all problems.
You would believe verses 4 and 6, but when it comes to a verses that goes against your belief you say the verses cannot be trusted.
Ecclesiastes 9:4–6 (NKJV): But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.
Ephesians 9:5 is not talking poetically. it does not talk about death for that one verse, but all the verses around it as well.
Not only that, but bodies cannot awake if they had no soul returned to them. And how would a soul awake to something it has been on for the last thousand years?
and with Daniel 12:2 it refers to “them” not “the”. the Greek is יָשֵׁן and it means sleep of death. That is the literal meaning.
Because it says that the heavens were opened and His soul was recurved in heaven does not mean that when he dies he will be in heaven immediately. just that his soul was accepted.
Umm... Jesus was straight up dead... there be no preaching Sheol 😂 them be dead. dead. dead. bruh. and. um Sheol ain’t no paradise. hope u agree. if u do, I’ll ship u there 😂 jk
Alright, well, I've got to get going for the night, so we can pick this up tomorrow. Goodnight! 😉
First, @BM, how come you get to say where the comma goes in Luke 23:43? (Btw, the comma is before the word “today” in the KJV--*throat clear* 🤔--just saying). But, regardless of that, the original Greek does not contain punctuation so, it’s subjective. But to me, it would make more sense for it to be, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise,” then for it to be, “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.” Of course he was saying it “today”, so there wouldn’t be a need to include that word if that’s what he meant. And when he said “paradise,” he did not mean heaven, but Sheol, or Abraham’s bosom where Jesus went to preach to the righteous dead on THAT DAY, and then when he rose, brought them up to heaven. Now, with Stephen, you can clearly see in the preceding verses that HEAVEN WAS OPENED which would show that his spirit was about to be received into heaven. And I’m not saying that we get a new body as soon as we die. Our spirits go to heaven when we die and we get our glorified bodies at the resurrection. Also, @BM, how can you say that God receives our soul until the resurrection, when you’re also saying that it’s sleeping until the resurrection?
Micah, and np! I understand that you can say stuff and not really think about what you said
I know what I’m talking about, you do not need to tell me how to talk
Micah, thanks for correcting me 🙄
srry if the be a Christian was bad... now that I think about it..... 🤷♂️ could go either way imo
just don’t be mean and there don’t be a problem 😂 #badgramma
the be a Christian thing is in response to you saying ‘duh😂’
Micah, first of all I'm not trying to be mean. second of all I have other things I need to do, so please give me some time, for now, and I'll get back to you later. It might be tomorrow, though. 😉
1. Sethers, be a Christian. 2. Sethers, do not say (quote) you are wrong (unquote) 3. it said I tell you today, (btw note the comma after today just in case you miss it) you will be with me in paradise. sense it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to be with Jesus in paradise sense Jesus died. (I am not going to say duh btw)
He said TODAY not at the Resurection
And BM, you are wrong about the thief on the cross. Here’s why, he said TODAY you will be with me in paradise
God receives all believers, duh😂
and when the soul departs the body God receives it until the resurrection and then judged on judgement day.
thank you so much! at the beginning I thought I was the only one (in this discussion) thx so much for helping. 😊
so he fell a asleep then immediately awoke 😒.... ok... but the bodies thing was to show you, do you get a new body once you go to heaven directly after you die? or do you just stay “spirit” meaning:yourself? also the Luke verses comma was misplaced, and if you say it wasn’t, it’s your word versus mine, but, oh wait, Jesus didn’t even go to heaven that day so it is blatantly obvious the comma was misplaced 😮. I kinda tried to be mean to show you how you make us feel. stop. now. the HELLO!? was not needed at all.
When Steven said “lord receive my spirit he didn’t mean that he was going to be in heaven, but that god would receive his spirit, and not reject it.
Jesus said to the thief on the cross “for I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise”
@Micah, to your “final” question it DOES say it clearly. For example, how about this verse you gave earlier to support your point when it actually supports mine? “When their spirit DEPARTS, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.” Where does their spirit go when it departs, if not to heaven or hell? Also, Luke 23:43: “…TODAY you will be with me in paradise.” He didn’t say “at the resurrection…” Also, you ignored my comment earlier today about Acts 7: “You can clearly see in the preceding verses that he was seeing HEAVEN OPENED and his spirit was about to be received into heaven, as he said, “Lord Jesus, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT.” (Acts 7:59, emphasis added) So, he did go to be with Jesus right after he died. Saying that he fell asleep is just another way of saying he died. Just like we use the term "passed away". And this verse: “This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.” (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? (Eph 4:8-9) Why does it have that verse if people are just in soul sleep and don't go somewhere when they die?
@BM, I’m not saying it should be ignored, I’m just saying that it has to be taken into consideration with all the other scriptures in the Bible. Also, I gave 1 Cor. 15:42-44 in answer to Micah’s question: “How can their bodies come up from the ground if they are decayed and not even there?”
Hold on, boys! One at a time, now, please! 😂 I’m not a computer. 😂 Now, first, Micah, in answer to your question of why we need glorified bodies is because, first, because the verse 1 Cor. 15:42-44 says we will. Second, JESUS had a glorified body! HELLO!? (Luke 24:39)
AuroraBeam... u dint join... 😢
I checked the Greek roots and, no, 2 Peter 2:9 had no add ons (for future reference). :)
it’s going to be renamed to GAFTT
BM, you are not making any sense
I usually go with NKJV for memorization because it’s almost the same as KJV, but more modern.
umm, well KJV has a lot of verses that probably weren’t part of the original text and were just added during translation. Not on purpose necessarily but like someone took notes and then someone was copying their text and then included the note or something like that.
Btw join by group GAFTP ✌️
Uhh, yeah KJV isn’t the most accurate..... NASB is pretty awesome tho 😆
sometimes feels like they are trying to prove to us the resurrection when what they actually need to prove (and haven’t really given any verses that plainly point it out) their beliefs!
when it says spirit raised they think it supports their point... but we believe that! 🤦♂️
(also 1 Cor. 15:42-44 does not talk about death at all. it says that it is raised in a spiritual body, but there is no indication of death. but yea answer michan’s question)
Why are these people with the different point of view so frustrated? it sounds so mean sometimes like they are saying “I’m right and you are wrong” I just wanted to have a friendly discussion.
If you go to heaven DIRECTLY after you die... why was it never clearly said by anyone who wrote the books of the Bible?
just because it is in a poetic book does not mean it should be ignored.
I have to go now, but I'll be back shortly.
@Roger I have one final question (welllll not really final it just sounds more dramatic that way).
Ecc. 9:5 is different. it is talking about the dead for a long while, and not in any joking matter. Ecclesiastes 9:4–6 (KJV 1900): For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
I don’t use it tho 😂 it is hard to read
@Roger, it has been proven that KJV is the most accurate version sense they had hundreds of people working on it. There is a reason it does not get changed year-to-year
So why do we need bodies again roger? 😂
@BM, yes, but I still stand by my point about that verse.
@Micah, my verses prove my point just as well as yours if not better. And I did answer that question earlier. Our bodies do decay in the grave, but then when the resurrection happens, they are glorified. It explicitly says that in Scripture: "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Cor. 15:42-44) See? It's very clear.
I don’t know why it didn’t add the last part.
also Ecc. 10:19 is about the fool, it says Ecclesiastes 10:18–19 (NKJV): Because of laziness the building decays, And through idleness of hands the house leaks. 19 A feast is made for laughter, And wine makes merry;
@Bible Memorizer: KJV is NOT the original NOR most accurate. The NASB is also very accurate, but I'm not going to debate about Bible translations right now.
@Roger plz read my comment
@BM, you obviously did not read the verse I gave: (Eph 4:8-10). Please read that whole comment I gave to go with it and respond to it. As for the Greek translation on 2 Pet. 2:9: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-9.htm
@Roger How can their bodies come up from the ground if they are decayed and not even there? And what would even be the use for them sense you already get a new glorified body? I asked this question earlier but you avoided it... please answer. Also please do not be like this verse means one thing, so this other verse has to mean the same thing... that is wrong. You might be wrong, they might be wrong, you can not always assume you are correct. Lemme tell you, you are wrong... on something that you believe. lemme tell you another thing.... me and BM are wrong on something we believe. We cannot all be right! if we were all right, how would we disagree? I believe we are right about this because it PLAINLY says in the Bible. Word. for. word. with. my. belief. You say a verse that may work with your belief, but that does not mean it proves it.
That being said the KJV is the original translation of the Bible and is considered the most accurate. when quoting scripture I always try to use KJV or NKJV because they only use the Bible and do not make verses sound better or easier to understand.
And also please show me the Greek translation where it says that the dead are punished until the judgement.
Jesus was trying to get a point across.
this is a parable, not a true story.
Btw. you didn't respond to this comment I had made earlier: After Jesus died, He went down to Abraham’s Bosom to preach to the righteous dead, and He brought them OUT of Sheol and into Heaven. “Therefore it says, ‘When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.’ (Now this expression, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)” (Eph 4:8-10) Why does it have that verse if people are just in soul sleep and don't go somewhere when they die?
Um, BM, you're acting like the KJV is the "end-all-be-all". That's not the only correct translation of the Bible. But the Greek says otherwise that God is keeping them punished until the day of judgement. The NASB and many other translations word it the way I had quoted it earlier.
2 Peter 2:9 says they are reserved under punishment for the day of judgement. This does not mean that they are being judged. it means they are reserved under it. you may think that it does mean that they are being punished until then, but read it in KJV and the wording makes more sense. 2 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900): The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished
Basically, my answer to Ecc. 9:5 is this: First of all you have to look at a verse in context and context includes the entire rest of the Bible. So, a verse in Ecc. cannot be contradicting other scriptures, like 2 Pet. 2:9 (see the last part of my first comment
below) and Luke 16, and many others that I will mention in a bit. Also, you have to understand that Ecc is a poetic book and you cannot always take a poetic book literally. You especially cannot base your doctrine on a single verse from a poetic book. If you did that, then that would mean that money is the answer to everything. 😂 "A feast is made for laughter, wine makes life merry, and money is the answer for everything." (Ecc. 10:19) Which is not true of course.
As for Dan 12:2 (wow, how many times do I have to say this?) when it says they will awake, it MEANS their BODIES will rise/awake, because they were dead/asleep. Now, I know you just say that it doesn't SAY that, but I'm not saying it SAYS that, I'm saying it MEANS that. Do you understand now?
Number one: What 2 Peter 2:9 has to do with this is that this is showing us what happens to the wicked when they die: they are "being reserved UNDER PUNISHMENT for the day of judgement." So that means that while they are dead, and before the judgement. when they're resurrected, they are being PUNISHED. What kind of punishment is soul sleep?? Especially if they don't know anything.
Okay, @Sethers please be respectful....
I’m not angry I’m just wanting your perspective. :)
if you have an answer then please say it in your next post. I want both questions answered on your perception.
and you still have not answered Ecclesiastes 9:5. we are going on circles because you are not answering my questions.
and he said that Daniel 12:2 said bodies, not souls. however, it never said bodies in the first place. it said them, referring to people.
how am I twisting the Bible if I am just quoting verses?😕
Also, Roger already answered your question about Daniel 12:2 so go back and look at his answer, thanks
BM, you are going back in circles and trying to find verses that you can twist to fit your stance, stop trying to change the Bible when it was written to change you!
both of these verses specifically say that the dead know nothing, and that they are asleep, but you keep naming verses and not answering the question.
and can you also answer Ecclesiastes 9:5 also? “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”
not only that, but you seem to be trying to avoid answering Daniel 12:2.
2 Peter 2:9 (NKJV): then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment
that’s not in the KJV or NKJV.
what does “WHILE CONTINUING THEIR PUNISHMENT” have to do with this?
what does that have to do with this?
@BM, I've said what I've said, and I'm not going to keep on going around in circles about Daniel 12:2. Please respond to comment below.
Also, here's another verse that speaks of a place people go, specifically hell, after death until the judgement. “…then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, WHILE CONTINUING THEIR PUNISHMENT.” (2 Pet. 2:9, emphasis added)
there are no bodies. this is referring to a person
I need to go, but Daniel 12:2 says Daniel 12:2 (KJV 1900): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
Also, after Jesus died, He went down to Abraham’s Bosom to preach to the righteous dead, and He brought them OUT of Sheol and into Heaven “Therefore it says, ‘When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.’ (Now this expression, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)” (Eph 4:8-10) Why does it have that verse if people are just in soul sleep and don't go somewhere when they die?
No, I'm talking about that verse. And where does it say in that verse that it will be their souls?
where does Daniel say that they were bodies? are you talking about another verse
as I said before. This is a parable. the reason for a parable is to give a point.
Vera did, already. She said, "our BODIES will awake, not our SOULS. So there is a way that we can awake to everlasting life--because our bodies do."
@BM, you must have not seen what Vera just said about Jesus ALWAYS speaking the truth. He wouldn't be mentioning all that about Abraham's bosom and hell and all that, if it weren't true! That would just confuse people!
and you still have not given me an answer to Daniel 12:2
I still don’t think that because Jesus has given someone a name in a parable means that the parable is true.
Bible Memorizer, our BODIES will awake, not our SOULS. So there is a way that we can awake to everlasting life--because our bodies do. Also, give me one PARABLE where Jesus names someone. Also Jesus would not give that example if it were not true. He ALWAYS will speak the truth.
I agree, Vera. (I didn't mean heaven I meant paradise or Abrahams bosom, sorry)
Also, Nadia, you're absolutely right about our bodies and our souls and about Elijah being taken to Heaven. As for Lazarus going straight to Heaven, you might want to see what I said below. 🙂
read Daniel 12:2 There is no way that you can “awake” to something that you have been in for thousands of years.
I don’t think that because Jesus give someone in a parable a name concrete evidence that you will immediately go to heaven after you die. also you have still not responded to the last verses that I quoted.
Micah, please see Roger's comments down below, and please don't miss them. Now, to respond to what Sethers and Bible Memorizer are saying. First of all, the two people that appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration were Moses and Elijah.
Second of all, the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus WAS a true story. How do I know that? Because Jesus NEVER, EVER, EVER names the people in His parables.
Thirdly, they weren’t sitting ON Abraham’s Bosom. It was the name of the place that the righteous went to. You see, there was Sheol, that had 2 places; one was Hell, where the wicked went, the other was Abraham’s Bosom, where the righteous went (it was a place of comfort). Between the two, a great chasm was fixed (Luke 16:26)
After Jesus died, He went down to Abraham’s Bosom to preach to the righteous dead, and He brought them OUT of Sheol and into Heaven “Therefore it says, ‘When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.’ (Now this expression, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)” (Eph 4:8-10)
NOW, there is STILL hell (where the wicked go), but there is also Heaven (where the righteous go). I hope that makes sense.
they were at 3:15 and up EST
read the verses I gave you and give a response to them.
Our bodies ARE GOING TO BE IN THE GRAVE UNTILL THE RESSURECTION. Our souls ARE NOT
You guys, this makes no sense 🤦♀️ Elijah went straight into heaven. The rich man when straight into Hell, the poor man went straight into heaven. Lazarus was DEAD....
Elisha and the fiery chariot
You have not given evidence for yours, I already gave evidence
I need to go now, but think about what I said.
currently I know of no other people who have been resurrected, but if I did I would be completely fine with that. God must have had a reason behind it.
*and now that I have given you evidence
look. you’re trying to make me answer questions that I do not need to. you have given me no evidence that people are resurrected immediately, and not that I have given you evidence and verses, you ask me questions like what God thinks of “exceptions”. All I can say is that the Bible clearly states that we are in the grave into God Resurrects us, and we should not question what His logic is behind that, just believe.
And you said just Abraham was an exception, no one else, that sounds like putting limits on God
You said that Abraham was an exception, so why was he an exception?
You just answered for God though
Who is the “most of us”? I just did😂
it’s not our place to question.
I’m not setting limits for God, He just made exceptions. if He wants to resurrect me immediately then so be it, but the Bible clearly states that most of us sleep until the resurrection. you still have not contradicted that.
Ok, so was he just a better person then?
he was an exception, but most of us lie in the grave asleep.
Well you said the exception was just Moses and the other guy, so you just set the limits for Go’s
and I just said that a few posts ago
What about Elisha who went to heaven on a fiery chariot?
So your saying God gives exceptions? who gets the exceptions then?
Haha😂 that makes no sense
and I do think that they were resurrected before the resurrection. Just those people were an exception. like Enoch and Elijah
It’s not what your Bible verses you are using say😂
Ok, if Jesus is the only one in heaven then why did Jesus come down to talk to the disciples on the mount of olives with Abraham? and I think the other guy was Jacob?
and yes that is exactly what I am saying.
and you are trying to set limits for God as if he couldn’t resurrect someone or build a house in a second.
No, I’m not setting a limit on God, he could do anything he wanted, but your point doesn’t make sense because your basically talking about our bodies being put back together so we can go to heaven
he can still prepare a place for us.
Jesus is in heaven. just not others.
and I didn’t say that the parable doesn’t matter, just that it didn’t happen.
And plus, Jesus hadn’t died yet and gone to heaven, Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you, and so the people had to wait till Christ died and went to heaven to make those peoples “mansions” as it says in the Bible
So you would set a limit that God could not regenerate us because we would be dirt. I think he has done greater miracles than that.
Abraham is in heaven BM, so heaven is really what he was talking about
You can’t just say that a parable doesn’t matter😂
Listen, if our bodies stay in the ground till Christ comes back, that wouldn’t work out. Here’s why, our bodies deteriorate
If that parable were true millions of people would be sitting on Jesus’ bosom. I kind of feel like that would be worse than sitting in a grave. :) but no mind the story is an allegory. like the Good Samaritan or the parable of the talents.
Yes, and that point was that our souls do not stay in the ground
and Jesus told parables to get a point across.
that’s an opinion, and that should contradict the Bible. just because you do not like a fact does not mean it isn’t true.
If it’s not true then why would Jesus tell it?
It’s a parable. none of the story actually happened.
Umm... to lay in a grave for who knows how many years is absolutely horrible
What about the parable Jesus told of the rich man and the poor man? the poor man died of hunger and his soul went to Abraham’s bosom, so how does this verse talk about him being in the ground?
and yes that’s what I would say. it doesn’t sound depressing either. you die and wake up to the resurrection. you don’t think or know anything until God wakes you up again.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”
So then you are saying we just float around in the air BM? that sounds soooo depressing BM, I don’t know how you would want to believe that you have to wait in the grave and do absolutely nothing until Christ comes
Now look at this verse and explain how these people would “awake” to something that they had been in for thousands of years.
Daniel 12:2 “ And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
read the text. you can see that this is talking about the resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
what verse says that our body is sleeping and our souls are in heaven?
As for Daniel, our BODY is sleeping/dead, NOT our souls. Once our souls are created, they can never die. Our bodies do, but not our souls. So, even when our bodies die, our souls are still alive, and they go either to heaven or hell.
Regarding Matthew Henry, I'm quoting him because he says exactly what I'm trying to convey to you, and he puts in a very understandable way. I'm not just adopting what he says on the spot just because.
As for Job, you can see from other Scriptures that our spirits WILL rise when we die. Like in Acts with Stephen, (which you didn't reply to btw)
First of all, regarding being reunited with our bodies in the grave: They are decaying, but then when the resurrection happens, they are glorified. It explicitly says that in Scripture: "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Cor. 15:42-44) See? It's very clear.
Job also, if the people are asleep and can not be aroused till the last day, then their spirit can’t because the spirit IS the person.
body decaying also, there is no way that it will survive... it will be gone, it’s not needed.
And Daniel, how can someone be asleep if their spirit is alive? Your spirit is YOU. It isn’t some separate force. Are spirit is sleeping and body is dead.
About Matthew Henry... Please use your own words and feelings about these verses, respond with verses, not quotes. Humans make mistakes, but God does not, he wrote the Bible. so we should discuss that.
About Job 14:10-12 But it does not say they will....
About John 5:28-29 they don’t reunite with those bodies sense we get new ones... sooo it can be what you are saying.
Please read these responses CAREFULLY, as I did for yours, and then I'll give more verses, afterward.
As for Acts 7:60—“Death is but a sleep to good people; not the sleep of the soul (Stephen had given that up into Christ's hand), but the sleep of the body; it is its rest from all its griefs and toils; it is perfect ease from toil and pain. Stephen died as much in a hurry as ever any man did, and yet, when he died, he fell asleep. He applied himself to his dying work with as much composure of mind as if he had been going to sleep; it was but closing his eyes, and dying…If he thus sleep, he shall do well; he shall awake again in the morning of the resurrection.”—Matthew Henry. Here Matthew Henry is stating very well EXACTLY what I believe. You can clearly see in the preceding verses that he was seeing HEAVEN OPENED and his spirit was about to be received into heaven, as he said, “Lord Jesus, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT.” (Acts 7:59, emphasis added) So, he did go to be with Jesus right after he died. Saying that he fell asleep is just another way of saying he died. Just like we use the term "passed away".
Job 14:10-12—this is saying that our bodies will lie in the grave and will not awake or be aroused on this earth until the resurrection. It does NOT say that our souls or spirits will not rise.
John 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Daniel 12:2--I am NOT denying anything about these verses. They are just speaking about the resurrection which I DO believe in. The souls of the dead people will be reunited with their bodies that will come up out of the graves. Some will rise “to everlasting life,” [they will get their glorified bodies at this point] “others to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Psalm 146:4—“When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.” This verse actually proves MY point because it clearly says, “THEIR SPIRIT DEPARTS”. Our spirit departs from our body and goes to heaven, and our body returns to the ground until the resurrection—SIMPLE!
Psalm 115:17—“The dead are not capable of praising him, nor any that go into silence. The soul indeed lives in a state of separation from the body and is capable of praising God; and the souls of the faithful, after they are delivered from the burdens of the flesh, do praise God, are still praising him; for they go up to the land of perfect light and constant business. But the dead BODY cannot praise God; death puts an end to our glorifying God in this world of trial and conflict, to all our services in the field; the grave is a land of darkness and silence, where there is no work or device.”—Matthew Henry.
So, what he’s saying is that our bodies are what lie in the grave in silence and darkness. THEY cannot praise God. However, our souls that are up in heaven when we die ARE praising God.
Ok, so I did what you said, and I'm going to give answers for ALL your verses. But first, I want to make it EXPLICITLY clear that I do NOT deny the resurrection AT ALL. And I'm not saying either, that the resurrection happens right after we die. All I'm saying is that between the time we die and the time of the resurrection, our souls DO go somewhere and do NOT just lie dormant in the grave. So, with that, here are my responses to the verses you gave and afterward, I'll give more verses that support what I'm saying.
Just look at them ALL, consider, pray, then respond respectfully please. Thanks!
why didn’t they say “and went to be with his father in heaven”?
“Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.” Acts 7:60
Please prayerfully consider these verses and opinions. The Bible has said it so many times. Me and Bible Memorizer are trying to tell you this.
How about this verse from Job that shows 100% what will happen? This is my complete opinion: “But a man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As the water of a lake dries up or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so he lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep.” Job 14:10-12
what do you say to ALL these verses that PLAINLY spell out what will happen?
“Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2
“in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52
what about this verse? ““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.” John 5:28-29
“When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.” Psalms 146:4
“It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down to the place of silence;” Psalms 115:17
I'll respond in the morning. Good night, for now.
I was confused by what you were saying about the spirit and souls earlier, I apologize for that. I do not believe in a spirit and a soul. There are not two separate things that live in our bodies. We are ourselves because god breathed breath into us. Our opinion is that you go to heaven/kingdom/new heaven new earth, when Jesus comes to the earth the second time.
Yo we agree we are going to heaven, getting new bodies, and then throwing these stupid bodies(i mean they truly are compared to what we are going to get) away. The question is WHEN. And all you guys are saying that if we don’t believe in resurrection after we die we don’t believe in the resurrection. That is completely UNTRUE.
Think of it this way: Our body and spirit is like a hand and a glove. Without the hand, the glove can do nothing. That's like our body. But when we put our hand (that's like our spirit) into the glove, it can move around. So, my point is that, yes, our spirits and souls are alive when we are out of our body. Our body is what sleeps until the resurrection when we die, not our souls.
Bible Memorizer, I'm saying that the sprit and soul CAN live without a body. Our body is just an earthly tent. "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands." (2 Cor 5:1)
I thought people were supposed to be alive in heaven 🙂
aren’t you saying that when you’re absent from the body and present with the lord alive?
I’m confused...so do you believe that the soul can live without the body or not? if the soul cannot live without the body, then how could it be in heaven?
Sethers, I think he's saying that when we are absent from the body, we are in soul sleep until the resurrection, which I totally DISAGREE with. @BM, still please see my comment down below.
Stop trying to change scripture when it was written to change you!
BM, so your saying that “absent from the body” means your still alive?? I think that is dead, read the verse again. absent from the body, present with the Lord
To my understanding, your reasoning for why we can't go to be with the Lord as soon as we die, but have to wait till the resurrection when we get our glorified bodies, is because you think that our spirit cannot live without a body. (I'm saying that, because I saw that either you or Micah had said that somewhere at the beginning of the debate) However, that is completely the opposite of what is true. Our body cannot live without a spirit! "For just as the body without the spirit is dead,..." (James 2:26a)
Well, in terms of which is better, (to be in the body and helping others or being away from the body and at home with the Lord) is a subjective thing. In Paul's case, he preferred to be away from the body and with the Lord, but he knew he had to stay here on this earth since he still had work left on this earth. However, I still strongly believe that as soon as we die, we go to be with the Lord, and we don't have to "wait" until the resurrection.
*and working in the commission until you die
also you stated in your last post you said that sleeping until the resurrection and not working in the commission until you die would be better. I personally would prefer sleeping until the resurrection and not working until then, but I do because I want to spread the word of God.
@Roger, I am not sure where you came to that conclusion with, but I do not see a biblical context behind it. The Bible says that the dead “sleep” until the resurrection. this would mean that being with the lord would be that much faster. not only that, but Paul also states that he desires to depart and be with Christ. there is no context in which he dies. it says “to die is gain” but that does not mean that when he dies he will be with God.
that’s when Jesus said that she was sleeping
i meant Luke 8 with the girl that was resurrected.
OOPS!!! I'm reading luke so that was on my mind
Also, @Bible Memorizer, to your comment about Paul, he WAS talking about going to heaven immediately, or else, as I stated earlier, why would he want to just die and be in soul sleep until the resurrection, instead of staying with those who needed him on earth? Obviously, for him, dying meant immediately being with Jesus in heaven!
That's exactly correct, Nadia! So, @BM, Jesus DID say that he was dead. The fact that he used the term "asleep" is because, for Him, raising them from the dead was just as easy as waking a sleeping person. It did not mean that they were actually sleeping!
Luke 11: 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
when Lazarus was resurrected he would have had to be pulled out of heaven and brought back to earth. do you really think he would want that? not only that, but Jesus never said that people that he resurrected were dead, they only were sleeping.
but it does not talk about dying and going to heaven. when you die it states in the Bible that you are “sleeping” and therefore do not know anything until the resurrection. What Paul is talking about is dying and going to see Jesus, but not immediately.
Bible Memorizer, you took that 2 Cor 5:17 verse completely out of context. What Roger quoted has nothing to do with being born again. And Nadia, I agree with what you said about not being resurrected immediately after death.
That has nothing to do with being born again
I’m not trying to be mean BM, but what you just said has no meaning. That makes no sense at all
We are not resurrected immediately after death, our bodies die and our souls go to be with the Lord. How is that talking about being born again??
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Phil 1:21-24) Bible Memorizer, it's very obvious that what he's saying in this passage and the previous ones, means dying, not being born again! What you said doesn't make any sense at all. What he's saying is totally different from being dead to self when we are saved. Vera will respond to you re: Luke 16, after you answer this.
2 Corinthians 5 “absent from the body and present with the Lord” has nothing to do with being resurrected immediately after death. it is talking about being born again. 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. If we are saying that everything in that story was true then people are sitting on Abraham’s bosom when they die. and that makes no sense
Exactly, exactly! Micah see below, but also see here. (I will explain the Luke 16 passage a bit later.) This is the context of the verse I'm about to share. "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about thoses who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope." (1 Thess 4:13) Ok? Now this next one is the verse I'd like you to see, along with the one Roger and Sethers were giving. "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that WHETHER WE ARE AWAKE OR ASLEEP, WE MAY LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM." (1 Thess 5:9-10)
Micah, here is the context to that verse: "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
(2 Corinthians 5:1-10)
Exactly, Sethers! Why would Paul want to die and BE WITH THE LORD if he was just going to go into soul sleep until the resurrection at the very end?
I’d love to know where that verse is, context, and if the people have even died when that has happened. @Vera already read it, most likely disagree but can’t know until you tell me what you think.
How can you be present with the Lord in the ground? ask yourself this
Absent from the body, present with the Lord. I’ll find you this verse, I have to go but this is the verse that proves everything you have said wrong, read it
Bible Memorizer and Micah, please read Luke 16:19-31, as Nadia already gave down below. My bro and I will be back on a little later.
Secondly, that is fine if Bible Memorizer wants to use the Ecclesiastics verse as one of his verses to support what he's saying. All I'm trying to say is that one should not build his theology on a verse from the poetic books. (Not saying you are, but just in case one were.) But yes, you can use the to support what you're saying. (Not trying to be rude.) 😉
First, the context of Hebrews 12:1 is Hebrews 11, where it walks you through the hall of Faith and speaks of people of long ago who walked by faith. Then Hebrews 12 starts off by saying, "Therefore, since we have such a great cloud of witnesses..." I'm sorry, but he didn't change topics there, and they didn't have chapter numbers.
Luke 8:52 (KJV 1900): And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
John 11:24 (KJV 1900): Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 11:25 is a verse about the resurrection. Hebrews 12:1 says nothing about the witnesses being from heaven, mark 12:27 is another verse about the resurrection.
Jesus always referred to the dead a “sleeping” not in heaven.
ok. like Micah said, we believe in people coming back from the dead, we just believe that it is at the resurrection. all the verses that you have been quoting say that people will be raised up and come back to life, it is true. but you have never quoted a verse that says they are immediately in heaven.
Micah, we'll get back to this tomorrow, ok?
it’s ok to say I respectfully disagree, let me explain why.... but saying that he can’t use specific scripture to support his point is kind of mean.
@Vera, also about Bible Memorizers verse, why are you so uptight? it was a verse from the Bible that he used to support his point. That is exactly what you are doing.
Now, falling asleep, this term alone can only mean one thing. That one thing is that those people are dead in the ground, but will wake up one day (hence being asleep), there is no other (believable way to explain it, but, as Vera said, I can already hear you arguments to this, but I will leave for you to say, not for me to respond to something you didn’t say. Also Vera, please don’t add to the Bible. It never said that those people are those who preceded us and who are up in heaven. If I even believed in going to heaven immediately after death I would think it was a stretch.
What? #1 Bible Memorizer and me totally believe in life after death, it’s just that the time ing is where we disagree. I believe that The dead in Christ will rise first when Jesus comes down from heaven the second time, then those who believe will be reunited with him in the sky. Also that verse says a great cloud of witness. You can either take that to mean people in heaven (which I do not), or believe that those people are on earth. Anyway, 8 doubt the people in heaven will be watching us, sense they will be eternally praising and worshipping their lord and king, Jesus.
Besides, God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Mark 12:27, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"
Please don't miss below. ⬇⬇
Also, what do you say to this verse? "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," (Heb 12:1)
I can already hear your arguments to this, so I'll save your breath and explain. This verse is in the context of those who walked by faith WHO HAVE PRECEDED US AND WHO ARE UP IN HEAVEN watching us run the race.
First of all, I don't want Micah to miss what Roger said down below, so, Micah, if you're reading this, please also see his comment.
Secondly, Bible Memorizer, you can't go by a single verse in Ecc and base you doctrine on that. The Bible cannot contradict itself, and from what all the verses that Nadia and Roger have sent, you can clearly see that there is life after death. You especially can't go against what our own Lord said in John 11:25, "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, YET SHALL HE LIVE, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die."
I’ll talk more about this tomorrow
also all the other verses that you said are about the resurrection when the living will be caught up with God. there is no other resurrection before that and we know this because the Bible says “this is the first resurrection”(Rev 20:5)
“for the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing”
I’m pretty sure when the Bible says that the dead will be raised with Jesus it is talking about the resurrection.
Man, I've missed out on half a debate!? As my bro Roger said, I agree totally with you Nadia! And I fully back up what Roger is saying. I'll try to be in more of this debate. Life is just so busy these days!
Secondly, here is one place where the scripture talks about the resurrection (there are several others, which I will most likely bring up, as we go along). But firstly, here is what it says in 1 Thes. 4, and this it is pretty straight forward here. "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep" (which is just another term for dying) "or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." (See, right here, how can Jesus bring with him those who have fallen asleep, unless they were in heaven where he is? This is obvious that the righteous who die go to heaven and are in heaven before the resurrection)
"According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." (That means we will be raptured after the dead in Christ come and reunite with their bodies, which are then glorified.)
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." So there you have it. It's very clear, if you just interpret the Scriptures literally.
If you don't mind me doing so, I'm going to step in here on this debate. First of all, I TOTALLY agree with Nadia. Now, when a persons dies, his body is buried in the grave and his spirit goes to heaven (which is the same as paradise, btw) or hell.
I am being very nice and will continue to be nice👍🏼
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Wow Noah 😯 Should I take that as an insult or not....
Sethers, please be nicer to my brother. He may be harsh at times, but he bases his beliefs on the Bible, not vice versa. He just has trouble explaining his beliefs sometimes.
I asked you to answer five times
I'll tell you when I get abck xD
I'm getting confused with the delayed messages @_@ and my mom is telling me to get off the computer so I gtg
where were they when they died?
Yes, Lazarus's body was dead for three days his spirit was in Abraham's bosom.
respond to Lazarus, and the others Jesus raised from the dead
also why did Jesus say people were asleep? you wouldn’t say someone is asleep if they are in heaven
Their BODIES died and stayed on earth. Their SPIRITS went up to heaven. then their BODIES rise from the graves, and the spirits are given GLORIFIED BODIES
like Lazarus, he was dead for three days
when jesus died the spirits of the people went from Abraham's bosom to heaven
so when they got roses on earth how did that work?
But they rose from the dead. wouldn’t when they die they would go to heaven?
Go and read LUKE 16: 19-31 and then come back.
and watch it sethers, you can tell your opinion but be nice and respectful about it
real time is messing me up...
They could not be in hell bc they are IN CHRIST
no that was on earth Nadia
so they don’t get to go to heaven?
@Micah: Yes, the bodies. Then we are given GLORIFIED bodies
Micah, what do you base these conspiracy theories on?
like with Lazarus, how terrible to have to come out of heaven
Listen, the Christians that rise from the ground are the ones that die in the tribulation
if they were dead and they were in heaven, how terrible for them to come out of that. And if they were in hell, then they would burn eternally, not raise out.
Also our spirits cannot die. That is the reason we are not afraid to stand up for Christ even if it means death, bc we know our spirits will not die. They will go to be with the Lord in heaven
You are just saying what you like, not what the Bible says
first of all..... “and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.” Matthew 27:52 NIV
I know there is a verse that talks about our spirits being separated from our bodies....but I just need to find it xD
It sounds more like you haven’t read the Bible, you haven’t based anything you have said on the Bible
Micah, I think you have the Bible messed up a lot
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him, shall not perish but have eternal life... in not saying we don’t have eternal life... listen brb
we get glorified bodies at the second coming, but we are already ALIVE with Christ in heaven until then.
John 3:16 lol everlasting LIFE. not deatth untill the ressurection
why do you think we get new bodies? to look cool?
hard to do this in real time
your spirit can live without your body.....
Your spirit is you. you died. your spirit can not live without a body. soooo it will live again when Jesus comes for a second time.
that’s what happens when you die
what happens to our spirit?
so basically your family and friends have a funeral and other stuff, you get buried
we are in the ground dead.
it says, truly I tell you today, you will be with me in PARADISE, note, not heaven
@Nadia, the comma is misplaced, they did not have punctuation back then
so what happens when we die? (according to you)
It says that we the dead in Christ will rise first, all together, not as soon as you die, that’s why they said people were sleeping, they were waiting for Jesus’ second coming.
what about the theif on the cross?
did you read those verses
a lot of verses imply we will go to heaven
No it doesn’t... it says there will be a new heaven and a new earth... same place were we live with God. We will be in the kingdom he is preparing for us. He’s gonna destroy this earth and heaven. btw I am born again. And I do believe in the resurrection... just not as soon as you die.
it kind of does................
interesting though.... gonna have to research that
well, tbh, the Bible never says we go to Heaven
Do you believe in the Resurrection?
Yeah, are you, Micah? It seems like we're believing a whole separate gospel here
Well it says we will all agree in the end (can’t wait)... but I do not believe we are going to heaven. And I do not believe we start to live eternally with God as soon as we die.
... but if nothing else, when we get to Heaven, we'll find out who was right. 😉
Micah, I think I agree... maybe we should lay this debate to rest now. XD Cause I don't believe we'll convince each other in a million years, unless God shows one or the other of us that we're wrong.
Sorry for my late response. I was with my family and in church most of the day.
But yes, Agent, thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly what I was trying to say.
It doesn’t matter if we do or do not believe in the trinity anyway
I think she’s saying that sometimes the letter writers weren’t always led to include the Holy Spirit but the fact that they did sometimes proves that it is true. The greetings with only the Father and the Son prove that the Father and the Son are one but they don’t disprove the trinity... Sorry if that didn’t make sense I’m not the best with words but I can make it sound better if that was confusing 😂
I disagree with your reasoning. you’re saying that some greetings matter, and the others don’t?
So if there are greetings that have all three, that means there is a Trinity, but it just so happens that the letter writers weren't always led to put the Holy Spirit in the greeting...don't ask me why.
First of all, Eph 4:4 is not at all talking about OUR bodies. It's saying there is one body of CHRIST. Second of all, just because something is not mentioned as many times as another thing does not make it so that it is false. Just because Jesus mentioned being born again only TWICE in His ENTIRE EARTHLY MINISTRY does not make it so that it is less important than anything else He taught--and it doesn't make it false either.
the others are just greetings that mention all three. there are plenty of greetings that DONT mention all three. Do they show the Trinity to be false?
btw, my bro is right here, and agrees
that last verse just says that we have a body AND a spirit.
Also look at this verse, Micah and Noah. "There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one LORD, one faith, one baptism; one God and FATHER of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph 4:4-6; emphasis added)
Bible Memorizer, you may want to go back and read the posts to find out what we're discussing. XD
And this, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." (1Pe 1:1-2)
Noah and Micah, look at this one, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." (2Co 13:14)
I have no idea what is even going on right now.
again, I don’t think either of us is going to convince the other.
but it could also be said that, if what we believe is right, the Power of God descends on his head, much like placing his hand on Jesus’ head.
Noah, ok, well earlier in the convo, Micah had said that He doesn't believe that the Holy Spirit is God...if my memory serves me correctly. But now that we have that understanding, if this will help, you can clearly see all three members of the Trinity in this this passage, and they are all separate. "As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice FROM HEAVEN said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased.'” (Matt 3:16-17; emphasis added)
No....I'm not saying that...Seven is the number of completeness and perfection. It is kind of hard to explain it to someone who can't see it, so I'm not even going to try to explain it. Partly because it's in the book of Revelation, and I don't want to (in my lack of being able to explain it well) end up adding to it.
“We” as in Micah and I, and you.
Vera, I agree that the Holy Spirit is a part of God, and I’m sure Micah (my brother) also agrees. The part we disagree on is that the Holy Spirit is also its own separate PERSON.
It says 7 spirits... so you are saying it means differently from what it says? 😂
What exactly is your point?
the seven spirits also represented specific churches in revelation only
Nope. I knew you would bring that up. "The Holy Spirit [is] called 'the seven spirits', not seven in number, nor in nature, but the infinite perfect Spirit of God, in whom there is a diversity of gifts and operations. He is before the throne; for, as God made, so he governs, all things by his Spirit."--Matthew Henry
Wai... so the holy spirit is 7 spirits? 😂 literally they could be any spirits since God himself is spirit!
It proves the Trinity because it says, "... from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come [the Father], and from the seven spirits before His throne [the Holy Spirit], and from Jesus Christ [the Son]..." It gives the greeting from all THREE members in this passage.
1st of all this is the proof: If it mentions the holy spirit twice, and the rest of the time just says Jesus and God... then its in the minority. And if you also add the fact that those verses have a contradictory over them, then they do not look like very good evidence. Also Rev 1:4 is a good verse... how are you saying it proves the trinity?
And what about this verse? Rev 1:4, "Grace and peace to you from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth."
I don't exactly see that as proof... just because it doesn't mention the Holy Spirit in those verses doesn't make it so that He's not apart of the Godhead. I already told you about Matt 28:19--it mentions all three in a very significant way and says 'in the NAME of'.
Also if there was a trinity... wouldn’t the apostles make a bigger deal about it? wouldn’t it be clear? Wouldn’t they at least say it once?
👌 you still have not responded to my question or proof
That, Micah, proves my point. The Spirit from God=God's Spirit=the Spirit of God=the Spirit of the Lord. They're one in the same.
So, Micah? it also says 'the Spirit of God' and uses those synonymously.
Oh! That we are body, soul, and spirit?
Also 1 cor 2:10-12 says that the spirit is FROM God.
she’s responding to your statement way down there ⬇️
I'm not sure I get your question, Nadia.
"but God has revealed it to us by His Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things if God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us." (1 Cor 2:10-12)
Question: if they r equal... where is the holy spirit?
““All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”” Luke 10:22 NIV
“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.” 2 John 1:9 NIV
“Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.” 2 John 1:3 NIV
“To Timothy, my dear son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” 2 Timothy 1:2 NIV
““All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” Matthew 11:27 NIV
“Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.” 1 John 2:22 NIV
I’ll do one verse at a time
😑 I posted it and for some reason it didn’t go into the chat... so give me like 5 mins
👌 I have a verse... one sec...
Anyway, this is kind of... no it IS a waste of time to talk about this, when I can clearly see that we both have our opinions, and we're not changing each other's minds. 🙄 So if you don't have any verses, we might as well stop talking about this.
..... um.... because it says 'THE truth' in both of them. there can't be two 'the truths'.
*sighs* But what is your verse that at least supports what your saying?
why can’t god be truth and the holy spirit? without them being one?
Cuz God is Spirit 🤦♂️ All you are doing is giving me verses that support you opinion! I need ones that PROVE your opinion! And it does not make since that they would have verses that proved the holy spirit wasn’t one.... if you think about it, it doesn’t make any since.
Ohh, yeah the truth.... you obviously didn't get my point AT ALL.
When did I ever give you a verse like that... about being smart??
They don't have problems. I gave you more than two if you look back--you, however, have not given me ONE that proves that the Holy Spirit is not God. Besides, it is understood in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is God. Take Genesis 1:1, 2c, for example. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
And saying that I’m a smart.... and my brother is smart... does that mean we are one?
How come these verses you told me have problems? How come you only give me two verses...in 23,145 verses in the Bible that explicitly state the three together? If it was actually true wouldn’t there be more? Did you know there are hundreds of verses that show Jesus and God are one?
Please see my two points below. Afterward, please read this scripture and my comment. "And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district." (Luke 4:14) Why would Jesus need the power of the Spirit if the Spirit were inferior to Him?
In the Greek, in Matthew 28:19, it says "the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." It says it right in the Greek!
You haven't given me any verses that prove what you are saying. You only gave me an article (which is not the word of God) or tried to flip the verses that I gave you.
Ok, so in the NASB, 1 Jh 5:6-8 says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (1 John 5:6-8)
The Greek in this passage for the word "agreement" means "one". Also, might I add that it says, "the Spirit is the TRUTH." And guess who told us that He is "the way and the TRUTH and the life"? JESUS.
I’m sorry, but you have to use actual proof from the Bible that PROVES the trinity and not just use verses that can support it.... they can support my beliefs too!
And that Luke verse shows that God used the spirit to anoint Jesus
http://www.usislam.org/deleted/constantine_wrote_matthew_2819.htm
So? the original Greek did not have that text. Also Vera I will post a link that proves it was changed.
Thats in the King James Version.
1 John 5:7 (KJV 1900): For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Also, everyone has a body, soul, and spirit. We have three parts, but we are one. We are made in God's image.
Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are oppressed." (Luk 4:18) The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord.
What I found was I'm not sure if 1 Jh 5:7 was changed a bit, but I do know for CERTAIN that Matt 28:19 was NOT changed.
And here's another verse. ""There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph 4:4-6)
Uhhh, no, Micah. Where did you get that? Have you checked the Greek? I'm going to check it tomorrow. I agree with Bible Memorizer. But goodnight for now.
1 John 5:7 Actually did not originally include ‘and these three are one’. AND Matthew 28:19 was changed by the Catholics! it originally said ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations’. BUT was then, later, they decided to add baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit... it’s kinda funny that you chose two verses that were changed to support your opinion for this topic.
Matthew 28:19 (NKJV): Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
I would like to still ask how you figured that all three of these were one.
Agreed with both Bile Memorizer and Vera, THO I do think that God is spirit. I think the ‘made in His image tho has more to do with creativity, and love more than looks. If you think about it God does not have a body like ours. It says in the Bible we will get new bodies, our bodies have problems, aches pains, are not perfect. We cannot know what God looks like
Understood, but it's still interesting to have a little debate on it. : )
Trinity or no trinity we are still Christians. Our Christian acts do not change majorly.
The Father is not a human being. But He's and Divine Person (an individual) with a form (we're made in His image, as you said, so obviously He looks like a man not a blob), Jesus is fully God and fully man; He also is a Divine Person. And the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person with a personality and feelings; He is not, however, a human being.
God isn’t a person exactly but we were made in His image so he’s not just spirit....
Ok. So to respond to what you said about God the Father not being a person... He is; he's a Divine Person. I never said he was a human being (Jesus is though). There IS a difference. Look it up. And my point is that the Holy Spirit is also a Divine Person. He's not just a blob or a thing. I'm trying to establish this point so that we're on the same page, before I start talking about them being one. Do you understand all this and agree, or do you have any questions or objections?
I read all of them and agree that the holy spirit can do them... that’s not what we are discussing
Here I am again. I do hope you took time to read all my points, as I am doing for you. Would you like me to wait for you to read and respond to them all? Or...
Now, I will write some more later, but for now I have spent a while on this.
13. He can speak: "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." (Mk 13:11)
12. He can be insulted. "How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:29)
““When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.” John 15:26 This sounds like Jesus and the Father have dominion and control over the spirit of truth.... which is obviously the holy spirit
I will respond to what you are saying a little later. Let me finish this, and then I need to do other things for a bit. 11. He can be blasphemed. "And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." (Matthew 12:31) Might I ask, what makes it a great sin to blaspheme a spirit that is not God, when Jesus said, "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man WILL BE forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit WILL NOT BE forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Matt 12:32; emphasis added)?
9. He can be resisted. “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts 7:15)
10. He can be grieved. "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)
Um.... God is not a person... HE is spirit. And using HE does not mean you are a person (because HE 😂 is the holy spirit. and mentioning all three in the same sentence does not mean they are one 😂 My goodness! do you need to create all these beings into people? God is not a person! It says in the Bible! God is spirit and his worshippers must worship him in the spirit and in truth. I’m not arguing about the abilities clearly stated by the Bible 😂 I am saying that there is no place in the Bible where they clearly or just state in some way or form that all three are one. I’d love a verse that actually proves it without just jumping to conclusions after hearing them all in the same verse. Yes they work together, my siblings and I work together... does that mean we are one? Not even... no offense.
7. He speaks and you must obey Him. "While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, 'Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.'" (Acts 10:19-20)
8. You could try to lie to Him, but He knows the truth. "Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?'" (Acts 5:3)
6. He intercedes. "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us through wordless groans." (Romans 8:26)
Hmmm... I'll combine some of these into one box, so that you don't have to scroll down so much...... 4. He guides. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come." Notice in this one that Jesus says 'He will speak'. But I also have another for that point. 5. He counsels and bears witness. "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to Me..." (John 15:26)
3. He performs miracles. "When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing." (Acts 8:39)
2. He convicts. In speaking of the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, "When He comes, He will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment..." (Jh 16:8)
1: He has a will. "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and HE distributes them to each one, just as HE determines." (1 Cor 12:11; emphasis added) Notice, also that in all of these verses I am about to show you, they NEVER speak of the Holy Spirit as 'IT'...ALWAYS 'HE'.
Now for the verses I will give you....
Yes! I remember this is a conversation about the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit being one. But I need to start off at ground level showing you that the Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing. I will give verses after I say this: how in the world can you make a THING sad as you just said below??...btw, you're right that one can easily blaspheme the Holy Spirit....
The Holy Spirit is much more than a tool in the hands of God, it is God in a different form. The verse I quoted didn't say that God is a spirit. It said that God is The Spirit. Can you explain away how the Bible mentions the Spirit frequently on the same level as God and the Son? (1 Peter 1: 2-4)
grieve means make sad... you can make the holy spirit sad in the way you live. You can also easily blaspheme the holy spirit... just don’t.
In order... yes,yes,nope,yes,yes,huh? I guess...tho wasn’t that Jesus, welll if you can resist it then.... 🤷♂️ you CAN obey it tho,idk probably?, yes, yes, yes, yes. Now let’s think about this like a tool... can a tool have a will.... well it works on the will of the person using it, can it convict of sin... yes, if that is what the tools point is, can it perform miracles...no...only God can... but he can fill someone with the holy spirit if he wants them to do miracles, can it guide...well a map is a tool... so yeah, can it counsel... yes tho this is convicting right? It can convict someone to do something, intercede...I still need the context of this one, do you...can you obey it... yes. Can you obey an instruction manual?, can it be lied to? no...but sense the spirit is a being it can be, resisted...you can resist what the spirit convicts you to do...and resist the law...which is a tool...kinda 😂, grieved... I need to look up the def after this, blasphemed...well same ⬅️, insulted...totally...”this hammer is the dumbest tool ever” *throwing it across the room, and speak.........what? when does it say the spirit speaks? but anyway... the angels speak, and they are beings, so why can’t the spirit speak, sense it is a being? remember this is a conversation about God, Jesus, and the holy spirit being one.
So, Micah, I will begin by quoting your very words, "The holy spirit is a tool of God, used by God, but not a separate PERSON".
Now I will ask you: does a tool have a will? can a tool convict of sin? can it perform miracles? can it guide? can it counsel? can it intercede? do you have to obey it? can it be lied to? resisted? grieved? blasphemed? insulted??
@Micah, I will get to the topic about the Holy Spirit a little later. I need to have my devos, right now.
Yes, now in verse 11, Paul is speaking about the different LANGUAGES in the world and pointing out that if he and someone who is speaking another language don't understand each other, they are foreigners to each other. (Notice also that while he's making this parallel, he adds that "they all have meaning", showing that tongues has meaning, as well.)
In verse 9, Paul is talking about GIVING A MESSAGE to the church in tongues. Because he just finished saying in verse 2 that the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man BUT to God! Then he says in the very next sentence (as I've already shared), that we utter MYSTERIES with our spirit.
Bible Memorizer, I think not. All he is saying in 1 Cor 14:5 is that he'd RATHER have them all prophesying than speaking in tongues. Where was the interpreter for Cornelius' family when they started speaking in tongues? What about for the TWELVE people that started speaking in tongues when Paul placed his hands on them?
In 14:11 it also says “If I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.”
the in 14:9 it says “So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.”
1 Corinthians 14:5 says “I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying” I other words you should not speak in tongues unless someone can interpret you.
Micah, I will respond tomorrow. I have to go to bed. But for now, please go back down and read what I wrote to you about tongues.
First of all, you are 100% twisting the words of 2cor. 3:17 it says that God is spirit... which makes sense sense he is a spiritual being, not a human. @ME give me more then one example of theirs ⬇️
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 10:35 PM
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The Bible almost always mentions the three persons of God as equal, and that they all give glory to each other.
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 10:34 PM
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and Biblememorizer, I think that whether the Sda church decided that the Trinity was from the Bible or not, it would be true, since that is what the Bible teaches.
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 10:33 PM
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2 Corinthians 3:17 says that God is the Spirit. That fits with the idea that God three in one.
you need to give me scripture that it is
sorry you got me off.. it is
What do you mean? 😂 you need to give me scripture that he is.
Where's your Scripture that the Holy Spirit is not God?
"This" as in worshipping two Gods? I'm responding to what you said to Bible Memorizer about not believing that the Holy Spirit is one with the Father and Jesus.
the holy spirit is not God
what are you saying this to?
So you worship two Gods, then Micah? I believe in ONE God, THREE persons. I will plan to give verses tomorrow, but it's late right now, and I've got to get ready for bed.
By the way, if you Micah and Bible Memorizer, read 1 Cor 14:2b, you will see that it says, "Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit."
Bible Memorizer, just because it doesn't talk about the apostles speaking in tongues again (however Paul does say in 1 Cor 14:18, that he thanked God that he spoke in tongues more than all of them.) But if you read the verses I sent from Acts, in the one from Acts 19:6, it actually says that Paul laid his hands on twelve different people, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
The holy spirit is a tool of God, used by God, but not a separate PERSON
I agree with Bible Memorizer about the receive not ask
There is a God, Jesus, and A holy spirit. BUT they are not ALL one. I believe God and Jesus are one but not the holy spirit.
But I think that is more irrelevant as long as we can agree that there is a God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit.
Also the Bible says in genesis 1:1 in the original language “God” as a plural, not singular.
MichahJustus, the Bible never actually talks about the trinity. the Adventist church went through this a few years ago and decided that there was a trinity. that was because we do know that God exists, and that He sent his son. we also know that Jesus has given us the Holy Spirit, but there are no implications of a connection. However, they are all made of the power of love, and do seem closely related in that relation.
I would not ask God to give me the gift of tongues. the disciples never asked for it, but God gave it to them when necessary.
@vera, I said the disciples never spoke in the tongues again(referring to to the apostles).
I just think that the Bible does not imply the trinity
I do not think that people even thought about the trinity back then. There was no thought of it. It has been fairly recently made up.
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 8:51 PM
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and yes, i don't think we can expect God to heal us simply bc we went to a service, even though I'm not judging anyone's motives
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 8:50 PM
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Micah, where does the Bible say that the Trinity is wrong?
also @Nadia... where is the translator? 😂 That’s unbiblical. Since it is unbiblical then I can not trust it is a real language.
Yes and they seemed like God always would heal them
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 8:33 PM
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Bc if that is, I totally agree. Humans can't bring about God's healing, but they can ask.
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 8:33 PM
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do you mean that bc you were there, you were going to be healed by God? Is that what you're trying to say Micah?
@ or not @Nadia Healing can come, but God does not always choose to heal people. That service is very misleading in that way...
Because I do not believe it is biblical
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 4:07 PM
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Why do you not believe in the Trinity, Micah?
I just remembered something! One of you (I think it was Bible Memorizer) said that no where else does it mention speaking in tongues in Acts....well, guess what? Read Act 10:26 and Acts 19:6. Gentiles and Jews received the gift of the Holy Spirit, by the laying on of hands, and spoke in tongues!!
And Micah, I do believe in the Trinity. It is 100% Biblical.
Second of all, Paul was not asking for one of the gifts of the Spirit in that passage. He was asking for God to remove something from him that was meant to be a test and meant to "keep him from becoming conceited". It was not God's will to take it away, because it was for Paul's good.
@Micah Jusut: Here's my question, what are these people doing? Making up their own language or what? https://youtu.be/oo7F9ZiBm48
You don't believe in the trinity?? or you don't understand it...
First of all, if God tells you they are, then they will. But sometimes one may think he is hearing from God, but he's not really. "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed." (Deut 18:22)
btw Nadia (@Nadia🙄😂) I made you admin
fyi I do not believe in the trinity
Paul asked three times... and Jesus said no.
“Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.” 2 Corinthians 12:6-9 NIV
I can answer my own question. no. that is not how it works.
So wait... if I believe that someone I know who is dying is going to survive they are?
I have know idea 😂. Maybe just so that they see "@", and they know we're starting to speak to a different person.
@Micah, sorry--typo.
Matthew 7:7-8. Please read that. I don't know if He has. I don't know if they all speak in tongues. All things are possible with God. Yes, if you had faith, you would receive. You may have to be persistent, but I believe you would receive.
And why do we @ people anyway 😂 it’s not like this is a forum or social media or anything
@Vera it’s Micah btw 😂 But to answer your question... what if he said no? Has he ever said no to a Pentecostal? don’t they all speak in tongues? how is this even possible? if I prayed for the gift of prophecy would I get it?
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 1:09 PM
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no worries. that's one of the problems with the message walls here
@Micha, my comment was answering your, "why do you want it?"question.
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 1:08 PM
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but i'll think about what everyone is saying
(Whoops! I hadn't seen your comment @Me.)
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 1:06 PM
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that being said, I think for now I agree with what Biblememorizer and Micah said mostly
(My comment is directed to Micha, btw😁)
“I believe in speaking in tongues, I believe that people can still do it today.” I said this earlier ⬇️
M_E
Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 at 1:05 PM
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I think i've said this multiple times before for almost as long as I've been here. God gives each of us convictions based on what we know and read in His Word. And normally, almost all of these convictions are not issues of salvation, so we are able to discuss with other believers without having to hold to our convictions so tightly that we can't discuss with others. I'm pretty sure that this is definitely one of the secondary issues, and not a primary one
Ok, let me put it this way. Say your father gave you nine wrapped up gifts. You open up eight of them, but, based on what you've heard of the ninth one, and since you don't understand it yet, you don't open it. Don't you think that would be pretty ridiculous? Wouldn't you want everything that he offers? As I pointed out before, God doesn't give us useless, cheap gifts. They're priceless gems.
@Micah I have also read the Bible and everyone interprets scripter differently I read that scripture and said "I want it" you may have said the opposite. But i don't think you can deny that it's in the Bible. (how long are we going to go around with this lol...)
Same, Vera xD I want it becuase it was promised by the Lord himself, it is a free gift just like Salvation. And why not have it??
Byw Nadia I have read the Bible and it would be easier for you to just say what you want to say... or what you have gotten from that passage since what I got from it is obviously different from your opinion.
Well, Micha, that's your choice. I'm not here to twist your arm. 😂 All I'm saying is it's Biblical; I want it, and I received it.
Amen, Nadia! Especially the first few verses.
Also, think of this, we have an enemy who prowls around and is always seeking to do is harm. Ok now, in the army, they have radio systems where it will jumble the words as they go through the air and then unscramble them when they get to the other side, right? Why can't God have that same thing, where we have a language that the Holy Spirit speaks to God through us with? Then the devil and his demons don't know what we're saying.
Well, Spanish is a tongue, but we're talking about a slightly different kind of tongue. 1 Cor 13:1 speaks of the tongue of angels.
I do not really want the gift of speaking in tongues... I see no point.
@Bible Memorizer, I already gave my take on that. I believe that when you're praying, you don't HAVE to have an interpreter. However, as has happened with my dad before, sometimes God will sometimes allow one to interpret the prayer.
@Micah, have you ever asked God to give you the gift of speaking in tongues? (Matthew 7:7-10)
That is wonderful that those Germans could understand the English sermon! I don't believe, though, that that is the ONLY kind of speaking in tongues
Great name change! 😂 I had been talking to Agent when I stated that we should probably stick to this topic, and not try to also juggle the other topics about women in the church and prophecy. However if you want us to do that, I guess that's fine, but it will make it a bit confusing to have all those discussions going at once.
Sorry about that... I was kinda of considering changing my name again but couldn’t think of a good username
For some reason it is super hard for me to type Agent1618
Hey @AuroraBeam... I am done trying to forget the old.
not being possessive or anything 😂
Btw @Vera... what was not on topic? Anyway it’s my group soooo 🤷♂️
More appropriate for the discussion 😂
Wait a sec.. if I know Spanish... and I go preach a service in Spanish... and there is an English interpreter... am I speaking a tongue? because tongue = language
@Bible Memorizer yes. but a lot of the time it’s just tongue clicking, and garbled nonsense. And I doubt that it is an heavenly language since there isn’t. (it just wouldn’t make any sense)
The thing is... I believe in speaking in tongues, I believe that people can still do it today. But i thin’ that there is no need for it (for me at least) because I talk to God in prayer. If your argument is then... what if God prevent an opportunity to speak to someone in a different language? Then either he will give me that ability (like the story) or he won’t. I feel like just speaking in tongues, to people, or to God, is not useful unless they speak a different language. It says in the Bible that The Holy Spirit will convict you on what to say to God. And I believe you do not need to speak in tongues to make that happen. As to @Nadia your questions... I couldn’t find them, so could you please put them in the chat?
1 Corinthians 14:26-28 says that you must have an interpreter. if any of you could actually decipher what one another was saying it would make more sense.
One of our pastors of a church... a long time ago preached at our service. There were two Germans in the adiance. After the service they were talking to people and said how much they had enjoyed the sermon. Those people were confused since the sermon was not translated. They said they heard it in their own language and then promptly recounted some key points from the sermon. The other people (not the Germans) thought this was strange (and awesome) since they had heard it ONLY in their own language. This is speaking in tongues. Everyone at that service heard the language they spoke and got something out of it.
It says that God gives some the gift of phrophesy, others speaking in tongues... we all have different gifts. That means that we all don’t spea’ in tongues.
Yes, Nadia! Amen! That's a wonderful testimony of getting baptized in the Spirit!
@ Agent1618: I agree with almost everything you said. :))
I'm going to try and respond to everyone so bear with me here xD
@Vera: Yes, same!! Sometimes I feel like Elijah in the desert 😂😂
@Micah Justus: I'll answer yours if you'll answer mine -_- which you haven't....
Basically what Vera said!! I'll just add that I had heard my mom speak in tongues, and she told me to read about it in the Bible and if I wanted it to pray for it. And I did, with the persistance of a 7-year-old 😂 until one Sunday I went down to the altar call (ironically at that church LOL) and the Lord Baptized me with the Holy Spirit and I spoke with other tongues. It isn't necessarily only a certain denomination, If you have an open heart and you BELEIVE the Lord will fill you. Just the other day I sent that sermon to a girl (@Agent if you'd like to know, Audrey) and she got filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke with other tongues and she is not Pentecostal. I pray in my own language and in tongues every day as well. The Spirit can help us pray in our own language. And I also know many instances of people speaking in tongues in a service and someone from another country hearing it and getting saved or getting stopped from doing something very bad.
Well, that has happened before when someone is speaking in tongues. One example is this. There was a Jewish man in a service where the pastor was preaching a sermon about tongues. Then he gave an invitation to those who would want to speak in tongues. Well this Jewish man had had enough of this craziness. He got up and left the service. Another man followed him out and asked if he could pray with him. Right in the middle of his prayer, he started to pray in Hebrew when he thought he was just speaking in tongues. When the Jewish man heard that and found out the other man was not Jewish and did not know he was praying in Hebrew, the Jewish man ended up getting saved. And it has happened other times also. But you still haven't given me the verse that actually says that there is a complete separation between the tongues in Acts and what was spoken about in 1 Cor.
the disciples were speaking in different languages that others could understand.
I don't agree. Where does it make a distinction?
of it is speaking in tongues, it should not be identified with the story in the book of acts.
in acts when the people had the Holy Spirit others could understand it. there was no “heavenly language” that they were speaking, and the other people from the others countries and understand what they were saying, unlike this.
Yes, thank you, Agent. I forgot to say it edifies our spirits. That is one reason why we speak in tongues.I believe that a whole church can speak in tongues while praying, because in Acts 2:3, it says, "All were filled with the Spirit and began speaking in tongues as the Spirit enabled them." However, if someone is going to get up during the sharing part of the service and start speaking in tongues without an interpreter, that is what Paul is talking about. I'm not sure what your question is about prophecy and women, but maybe we can try to stay on topic for now. And I agree with you about tongues being man to God, UNLESS the speaker has an interpreter.
I will start with answering Micha's. (And Nadia, feel free to add anything. I don't want to put words in your mouth.) I know I'm saying something because if the Spirit of God is speaking through me, then He wouldn't just NOT be saying anything! I have faith to believe He is. Your question is just like someone asking, "If you can't see God, how do you know your even praying to Him?" I don't know what language I'm speaking in. As Agent said, it could be a heavenly language. Paul said he would like it if everyone of the Corinthians spoke in tongues. Why would he say that if it weren't possible? God is willing to give any of the gifts to him who asks and believes. Please show me the Scripture where it says that it's not for everyone. I had heard my parents speak in tongues before, but in 2012, my father prayed for me, and I was baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Yes, every day I pray in tongues and in English. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit. Of course He can help us when we pray in our own language. God still uses tongues to speak to unbelievers. I've heard several stories of that happening.
Ok, a bit overwhelming seeing all these comments, not because I can't answer--I will try to answer every one.
I totally forgot to highlight my key point.... Speaking in tongues is not really meant to be man to man it’s meant to be man to God (1 Cor 14:2) And it’s basically a way that you are able to praise God in a way that you as a normal human being wouldn’t otherwise be able to articulate. If that made any sense.
Also, interesting thing I read once is that it’s hard for people to accept speaking in tongues because they believe for anything to mean anything it has to pass through our cerebral cortex and understand it cognitively and the idea that the Holy Spirit can go straight to spirit/heart really messes with their brains And, last point, in Acts 2 the disciples were most likely not preaching to the people gathered around they were really just praising God and everyone heard them “We do hear them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” Acts 2:11 And again in Acts 10:46 it says “They were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God” But also, there’s the part in 1 Corinthians 14 that says women shouldn’t talk in church.... and the whole prophecy thing is weird to think about too. Anyways, sorry my thoughts are probably really scattered and I would like to say, I’ve never spoken in tongues, but I do believe that it’s still just as much a real spiritual gift as it was in the Bible times
As Romans 8:26 says, speaking in tongues is a way that the Spirit helps us when we don’t know what or how to pray. It allows us to pray/praise what we wouldn’t be able to express in our own language basically. It’s not the only way the Spirit helps us with prayer but it is one way. Quite a few people believe that when speaking in tongues you are actually speaking a divine/heavenly/angelic language which would explain why no one can identify certain languages when studying people speaking in tongues( although does that explain Acts 2? No..... ). Speaking in tongues is a special way of talking to God and it builds/edifies your spirit (1 Cor 14:4). Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 that he wishes that all would desire and speak in tongues and implies that it is quite possible for everyone to be able to speak in tongues. It does also say that if speaking in tongues in public not to do it without a translator and churches that just speak in tongues all the time out loud like in service seems kinda weird to me. And yeah, when ‘spirit’ isn’t capitalized it’s basically talking about the heart.
Okay, I know I haven’t been a part of this but I wanted to get my thoughts in.... I apologize in advance 😂
And I also believe they spoke in tongues so that they could spread the word to unbelievers who spoke a different language
Also r u saying that the spirit can’t help you speak in your own language to God?
Because there is absolutely no reason to speak in tongues. speak in your own language to God! I you don’t understand it... how do you know if you are even saying anything? is it even a real language? Is it even necessary? Paul said that some were blessed with speaking in tongues, some with prophesy. how do you explain a bunch of people from a denomination all speaking in tongues? also how did you begin to speak in tongues? did your parents speak it in front of you? do you ever pray... with your own language? Do we even have spirits inside of us? Or is it another way to say from your heart? I hope you answer all my questions. God bless ✌️
😄 I'm glad to actually find someone who agrees with me. I've had this kind of debate before, and I sometimes feel like 'where is everybody who believes this way?!'
"I will pray with my spirit, but I will ALSO pray with my understanding." You pray in tongues, but you also pray in your native tongue.
"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries by the Spirit." (1 Cor 14:2)
"Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies himself..." (1 Cor 14:4a)
As to what you said about having a translator, that is only if you are going to get up in front of the church and GIVE A MESSAGE in tongues. "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God." (1 Cor 14:26-28)
also you are not supposed to speak in tongues unless you have a translator present.
1 Corinthians 14:14-15 says you have to pray with your understanding tho... that means you understand what you are saying.
*sighs* I can tell you didn't take the time to read any of the Scriptures I sent... from 9:37 AM... please read those.
what’s the point of saying it... if you don’t even know what it means?
Micha Justus, no, we don't always know what we are saying when we speak in tongues. If we did, we might as well say it in our native tongue. Sometimes, the Spirit will give us or someone else the interpretation, but not always.
What I just said or when I speak in tongues?
Do you even know what you are saying... truthfully.
@Everyone who doesn't believe in tongues for today: I speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance so what do you think it is? Just made up from my mind? orr....demon possession? Or what?
@Micah Justus: (this is response to the first thing you sent after my post...)
lol ok...just checking xP Keep in mind the Holy Spirit often makes ppl uncomfortable... The scriptures Vera sent pretty much answer that question.
"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." (Rom 8:26)
Besides, 1 Cor 14:14-15 says, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding."
And Ephesians 6:18 tells us to "pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests."
It doesn’t make sense to me either MicahJustus, I have done some research, not a lot but a little. So a question, why do we need tongues to speak to God if we have prayer?
@Agent1618 yah 😂 got moved here from final events sda... @nadia said she was healed while watching a service. so she shared the service with us and I watched it. I noticed the people were talking in tongues so I told them it made me uneasy... sooooo we started talking about speaking in tongues and 1 Corinthians 14
Well... yah. You are not going to try not to speak in tongues... it’s if God let’s you have the privilege. I 100% agree with @Bible Memorizer especially after reading up more on the subject
"Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and DO NOT FORBID speaking in tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39; emphasis added)
Sorry to interrupt but how did this come up, if I may ask? 😂 I’m assuming this conversation got moved here for some reason ( and it’s totally fine, just wondering)
I think that there as defiantly a time when the decouples spoke in tongues, and I defiantly believe it could happen again, but only at a necessary moment. when the decouples had tongues it did not signature that they could speak any language from then on, it just happened that there were many people who spoke in different languages outside and they all needed to hear the gospel of God, so the Holy Spirit gave them a temporary power to break the bonds of a language barrier so they could preach the Gospel of God. I do believe that there have probably been multiple times that the language barrier was broken through a miracle so that God could intercept, but I do not believe that there can be people who can speak in tongues whenever they feel inspired. the disciples defiantly did start speaking in tongues at a time when they were inspired that is true, but that was just the first miracle that they did, not a blessing they could attain whenever they were baptized or in worship. nowhere else in the whole Bible did the disciples ever speak in tongues again.
Also why can’t you just speak to God without tongues?
1st of all... I am not baptist 😂, and second of all... what is the point of speaking in tongues? It sounds bizarre and makes others uncomfortable. I am going to read a little more on the subject then get back to you.
@Micha what i don't get is what makes you think its not for today?
Absolutely, Nadia! If the Lord has it for us, why not get it? (Sorry for following you around, by the way, but I'm interested to see this convo unfold and to be of assistance in any way I can. 😁)
@ Agent lol okay good xDD
And what I thought was, if the early church had it and needed it, then why shouldn't I have it? I personally want EVERYTHING the Lord has for me, even if I don't understand it at all.
If there is no interpretation then it does not edify anyone but the person who is speaking.
It is definelty NOT for show, it just comes out when the spirit of the Lord is present. I was speaking on tongues to myself (out loud) in that service and in every service. It's like praising the Lord in a special way. You can feel it. It's wonderful! You can't hold it in even if you tried...
that word "tongue" in vs 27 is glōssa which means "of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue." and is the same GW used in Acts 2 when they were filled with the Holy Spirit. There are 3 ( if I remmember right) recordings of people being filled with the holy spirit with the evidence of other tongues and they spoke out (Acts 10, Acts 2 and another place I forget rn...) In 1 Cor. 12 it's listed as a "Spiritual Gift" (same GW)
@Nadia, I was being serious most of the time!
hmmm in my version it says: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
@ Michah Justus I'm going to respind to you but I gtg rn
YOu weren't answering seriously? cuz I took everything you said seriously............
@Agent 1618 Hmmm idr...that would have been a year ago....
It seemed kinda weird because it looked like those people were doing it for show.
It seems like #1 Tongue in This verse does not mean different language (it just wouldn’t make sense) #2 You are not supposed to do it in front of someone unless you have an interpreter. It would be utterly useless for you to speak something and nobody gets what you are saying.
@Nadia “What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.” 1 Corinthians 14:26-28 NIV
I can guarantee you did.... You know... when you would ask me questions about Bible Bee and I wouldn’t answer seriously....
Culver's is a nicer fast food place that's half restaurant half fast food
because I’m the most helpful!
Be quiet... there’s a reason u have a job
yer both rong, I’m da mulstest enhulpfol.
Nah I’m the most unhelpful... when someone told me to call the police I shouted, “police!”
and you called ME unhelpful....
Sooo..... @Nadia... what is Culver’s? I am to lazy to google it 😁
Arbys is good....Culvers is the best tho xP
I’ve never been there but their food looks good
What do you usually order?
What’s everyone’s favorite restaurant?
drastic change of plans i see @_@
I have a different idea tho soooooooo scrap that idea.
no..........................
ok... how about... Help needed (the place where you can go to get advice on what you should do) (we do not take any responsibility for harm done, lawsuits, injury, or other very unlikely things that will probably not occur when we give you advice)
Yah. I do that all the time and it doesn’t show up but 🤷♂️... In a week we will change the name. Anyone have any ideas?
sorry, I thought I checked this group for new messages but ig not?
loll wish I had a friend like that
Btw Agent... my best friend knew who Miles Minnick was 🤦♂️ He says so many new names it’s so hard to keep up with him. 😂
Exactly 😁🙏 Thx for getting me 😂
lol yeah.... it used to be good. They used to play really good songs that the other stations didn’t play but now they play obscure worship songs that I guess are okay but most of them kinda sound the same to me and yeah, what is up with them still calling it the ‘new’ air1 when it’s not new anymore??
Anyone listen to air1? it used to be good.... until they renamed it “the new air1” and started playing the same, overplayed songs all the time! Also it kinda gets annoying when they say “your listening to the NEW air1” 3 years after they made it “new” imo they already have plr and klove so why add another station that is basically the same thing... thank you for listening to my frustration... have a great day 😊
my family doesn't listen to CCM or none Christian music
do you have any music apps @Nadia?
Yayyy! his music is great
I don't have Apple Music...
lol yeah thats not what I was talking about xD
OH. MY. Thank you so much! Love Miles Minnick! listened to PLUTO and W.Y.T.
unfortunately it’s not on Apple Music. The only “family worship center” is a rock band xD pretty sure that’s not what you’re talking about
You should listen to Family worship center xP
I play piano and violin xD
Any specific songs I should start with?
Ty Brazil is awesome must I haven’t listened to Miles Minnick... I’ll check him out
hmm, have you listened to Miles Minnick and Ty Brasel?
I’ve been listening to a lot of nobigdyl and Lecrae rn
Sooooo.... any song suggestions or artist suggestions?
I don’t really play any... I can play some recorder and piano by ear though
@Nadia do you play any instruments @Auror... Agent1618 same question
They are so fun... you should. I am hoping that I FINALLY get to take lessons soon sense I have never taken them before.
ooh cool, I want to play the drums
Practicing is amazing LOL
I enjoy drumming more than piano
LOL why the 😑 face? piano is the best
Yah... I play piano 😑 and drums 😁
Ok.....xP do you play any instruments?
For now this group is about music! 🎶
How about we have it be a different theme every month?
I already have one soooooooooo... any other suggestions?
Need help to find a REAL purpose for this group. If you have any suggestions just let me know. Thx!
did you just come up with him over last summer or what? I forgot lol
it stands for P.R. which are the initials of the person in my pfp
Hello, Mr. Meerkat the First!
I just looked back in some of the history of other groups and some I called you Micah Justus. But it said that you were Agent1234. So that meant that you changed your profile. and I already new that Noah was your brother bc he said it on boy hangout. So when Agent2712 said that he was your brother I new that it was Noah. idk if that made sense.
trust me. I am not a stalker lol.
How do you know who we are?
and Agent2712, if you are hi brother, then you are Noah.
I can neither confirm nor deny this claim. 😎
Agent1234, you used to be Micah Justus.
Yay! I made you admin on the computer! And it worked!
sadness, I like being admin
try making me one and see if that works
@Agent1234, nope... still not
What? I set you as one...
I don’t think I’m an admin....
😏 What if I kicked you out? You wouldn’t be able to do anything about it..... jk I wouldn’t do that 😆
Agent1618, I made you a Admin. Do not abuse the power that is given to you. I will be keeping a close eye on you...👁